Saving Ghana's Guitarfish: Inside West Africa's First Shark Science Program

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I think it's fair to say that
we, Dave and I, get impressed

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by every guest that we have on.

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And this young man that is on the
podcast today, Issah Seidu, is one

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of those people who continue to
impress in how much dedication he

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has to his job and to knowing sharks.

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We're gonna find out what it's like
to work in Ghana as a shark scientist,

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where shark science isn't really studied
that much, and he's one of the first

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ones to do that, even in West Africa.

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So we're gonna talk all about shark
science in West Africa and Ghana on

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this episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Let's start the show

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Hey, everybody.

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Welcome back to another exciting
episode of the Beyond Jaws Podcast.

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I'm your co-host Andrew Lewin,
with my co-host, Dr. David Ebert.

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Dave, like, how impressed are you with
this guest that we have on with Issah?

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I was- … real impressed w- with
I- well, Issah, I mentioned as I,

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as I'll talk about in the show, uh,
I met him at Sharks International.

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Our friend Andrew Chen introduced me
to him, and he was so excited because

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he's a big fan of the show, and , who
would've known in Ghana, in West Africa.

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Right.

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But I talked with him and he was just
really an impressive guy, and I was

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just like, "I've gotta get this guy
on the show." And so, um, uh, so I, I

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was … I in fact even texted Andrew
that night from Colombo, Sri Lanka to-

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Yeah

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…
Canada and said, "Dude, we
gotta get this guy on the show.

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He's great."

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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so yeah, so we finally were able to
work it out, the timing, to get him

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on here, and, uh, as you'll hear in
the show, you know, he works in a part

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of the world that he really is a true
pioneer, like in Ghana- Yeah … 'cause

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there's just, nobody's done anything
on the sharks, and he's just literally

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blazing his own trail there, and that's

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It's great.

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I just, great getting people like that,
just real impressive guy and just seeing

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what he's doing there- Yeah … in there.

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And you're gonna hear his story and
about, hear his journey, which is

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pretty amazing, 'cause it's, you
know, that part of the world- Yeah

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it's not easy.

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No.

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Not easy at all, and he's just,
he's doing, he's making it happen.

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Well, and I think, like, even if we
set the stage here, you know, he's

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a young man, and he'll tell you his
story, but, learning and studying

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sharks in Ghana, where nobody else
is really studying sharks, and I

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think when we think of Africa, a
lot of us go to land animals, right?

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The safaris- Mm-hmm … and, and so forth.

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Or the only time you really think
about sharks is if it's South Africa,

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because that's- Mm … usually where
we see the footage and everything.

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Yeah.

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We don't see it from Ghana.

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We don't really hear about it
from Ghana or West Africa, or even

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other places in Africa, you know?

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And I think having … It's been
really enlightening to me, and

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I'm sure to you as well, Dave.

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I don't wanna speak for you, but I'm
sure you as well, where- We have these

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people who have, recently graduated
find, that sharks haven't really

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been studied very well and go to a
place where they can be that pioneer,

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which is challenging beyond means.

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You know what I mean?

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Because like- Mm-hmm … it
sounds great to be a pioneer.

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It sounds great to be the only
one studying or one of the only

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ones studying and working with
fishers and everything like that.

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But it takes so much time, it takes so
much patience and trying to overcome

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these challenges to get people to
understand why you're studying these

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things and why they need to protect them
and to know more information on them.

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I'm just highly impressed
with people who do that.

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That's not for the faint
of heart by any means.

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No.

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It's a hard job and for them
to just come on and talk about,

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like, he was pretty nonchalant.

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We've had other, like, Gofrey
did the same thing, like, they're

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pretty nonchalant about it.

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But it's a huge, huge thing.

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They're contributing so much.

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And to think, like, we're in 2026 and
people can still contribute such a

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great amount to- Mm-hmm … knowledge
of sharks in different places in the

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world absolutely flabbergasts me and
it's just, it impressed me so much.

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So here's the interview with Issah Seidu
talking about his work in pioneering in

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shark science in Ghana and West Africa.

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Enjoy the interview, and
we'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Issah.

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Welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about elasmobranchs?

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I am very ready to talk about

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sharks and rays in Ghana and
across West Africa and Africa.

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All right.

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All right.

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I like that.

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Well, welcome to today's Beyond Jaws
podcast, where we have a fabulous guest

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from a part of the world that we outsiders
do not know, really know a lot about.

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However, before I introduce him, I want
to acknowledge Andrew Chen, who introduced

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us at the recent Sharks International
Conference in Colombo, Sri Lanka, saying

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he wanted to introduce me to a big fan.

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Of course, I always want
to hear it from fans.

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But I had really didn't realize just how
popular we actually are in West Africa.

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So today, our guest is Dr. Issah
Seidu, who's a young conservation

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leader from Ghana in West Africa,
who has a special interest in both

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marine and freshwater biodiversity.

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Issah is a founder and team
leader of Aqualife Conservancy, a

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Ghana-based not-for-profit, dedicated
to research and conservation of

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marine and freshwater biodiversity.

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Issah's current, role at Aqualife
and Conservation is to spearhead

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research and conservation of sharks
and rays in Ghana and across Africa.

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He also serves as a vice chair for Africa
for the IUCN Shark Specialist Group.

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He's leveraged his role to train
many young volunteers, early career

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researchers, and conservationists to
be champions of ocean conservation.

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Issah is also a champion in research
and conservation of marine megafauna,

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again, specifically sharks and rays,
and guitarfishes, which I'm looking

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forward to talking about guitarfishes
today, in Ghana and across West Africa.

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Issah holds a PhD and a master's
degree in Wildlife Management, and a

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Bachelor of Science degree in Natural
Resources from Kwame Nkrumah University,

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which I completely apologize I've
mispronounced, but he'll correct me.

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University of Science and Technology.

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He has an impressive resume for someone
so early in his career, and I could

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spend the next 30, 45 minutes just
covering all that, but we'll touch

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on some of that during the interview.

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But some of the highlights are,
he has a certificate in Tropical

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Ecology and Ecosystem Conservation
from the Tropical Biological

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Association in the United Kingdom.

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He's also a fellow of the Zoological
Society of London Edge program,

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and he's currently also with the
New England Aquarium MCAF Fellow.

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He's also a 2026 Whitley Award winner.

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Wow, that's really impressive.

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And is implementing a groundbreaking
project aimed at garnering grassroots

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support for conservation of guitarfishes
and other sharks and rays in Ghana.

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Issah has contributed to the IUCN Red
List assessment to 28 endemic and near

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endemic West African sharks and rays.

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He's also an expert in reviewing
for East Atlantic guitarfishes

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on CITES and Appendix II.

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He's also a member of the IUCN Freshwater
Fish Specialist Group, and he's produced

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several technical reports and quality
scientific papers that are recognized in

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internationally peer-reviewed journals.

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He's received numerous awards, as I said.

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I could spend 30 minutes just
going over all that stuff.

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He has over 30 publications
to date, and he's contributed

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28 IUCN Red List assessments.

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I've already mentioned
his education background.

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He has a Bachelor's of Science, a
Master's, and a PhD. He's currently

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a lecturer in the Department of
Wildlife and Range Management, and

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he's also a co-founder and team
leader, as I mentioned, at AquaLife.

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And with that, Issah, welcome to the show.

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Wow.

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Thank you for having me.

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I didn't, uh, know.

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That is

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real.

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I, I-

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Holy.

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I could have gone on.

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I'm serious, another 20
minutes with this young guy.

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I d- I just had no idea.

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I'm pretty familiar with Southern
Africa and East Africa, but I'm not

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as up on West Africa, so it is a
real privilege to have you today.

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I didn't realize we had such a rock
star to bring on the show today.

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you know, that he-

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Thank you, Dave.

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Thank you, Andrew, for
having me on this show.

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You bet, dave.

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Oh, it's wonderful.

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It's wonderful.

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I wanna ask you, like we ask all
of our guests when they come on,

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like, how did you get interested in
marine science and sharks and just

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how did you get started in all this?

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Interested.

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That's a very interesting question,
and I've been very, very fascinated

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any time I hear this question.

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Actually, I started my career as a
terrestrial wildlife biologist, because in

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my university, Kwame Nkrumah University of
Science and Technology in the Department

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of Wildlife and Range Management, we
mostly focus on terrestrial species.

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So I had little knowledge and little
information on marine ecosystem.

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So for my BSc degree, I work
on dragonflies and damselflies,

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and I was also working on so
many terrestrial species such as

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amphibians, dragonflies,
elephants, crocodiles.

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Wow.

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So after my master degree- What a
range … yeah, after my master degree,

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I actually paid a visit to my uncle in
one of the coastal fishing communities

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in Ghana called Dscove Community.

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And

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when I was there, early mornings,
I usually go to the landing

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beaches to observe the fishermen.

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So one morning, I went to one of the
landing beaches and I saw several

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sharks and rays being displayed for
sale along these landing beaches.

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I actually got fascinated about
these species, and I wanted to dive

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and know more about the sharks, the
rays, and the guitarfish in Ghana.

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And I found out that there was
absolutely nobody working on the

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species, and no information on the
species whatsoever in the country.

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on the species, especially in the
country and even the West Africa.

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There were very little information
on sharks and rays and guitarfish.

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So deep down, something actually
pressed me, motivated me to start

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working on the species, at least to
collect key baseline information that

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can be leveraged to develop management
framework to safeguard the species.

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Because the fishermen, when I
had interactions with them, the

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fishermen were even oblivious.

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They were unaware that many of these
species are on the verge of extinction,

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and that they need our to ensure they
are still in the marine ecosystem.

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So this is what actually drove me into
working on sharks, rays, and guitarfish.

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Yeah.

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Really, when you, as you got this
interest there, there's really been

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nobody else that's ever, that I, I'm
aware of from Ghana who've really

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gotten into the sharks and rays.

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You're a pioneer in this whole area.

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Is that correct?

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Yeah.

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I'm actually one of the pioneers in the
sharks and rays conservation and research

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in Ghana, and even in West Africa.

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I can- Wow.

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I can,

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yeah, I can say that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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how difficult is that?

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We have the privilege here of a lot
of the stuff has been found and,

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you know, there's an established,
like, network of funding for specific

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species and specific types of
species here in Canada and in the US.

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Not as if funding is, like, easy to get,
but when you're the only one learning

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about sharks and rays in your country
or even in West Africa, what are the

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challenges that you face when you have
to be that person to advocate, not only

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to know more about them, so funding to
get more about them, but also just the

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knowledge of it and getting
that message out there?

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Yeah, it's quite challenging.

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I remember when I started conservation
and research on sharks and rays-

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And I mentioned that out to my
professors and my colleagues.

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All of them actually advised me to
focus on dragonfly and damselflies.

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Many of them actually.

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Because they know that I have
already created a niche for myself.

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I was doing marvelously well in
dragonfly and damselflies research.

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At that time, I had already
published about three to four papers.

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Wow!

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And they didn't understand the reason why
I'm moving from dragonfly to damselflies,

230
00:11:32,575 --> 00:11:35,605
and wanted to work on sharks and rays.

231
00:11:35,975 --> 00:11:38,355
So they told me that first and
foremost, I have two challenges.

232
00:11:38,465 --> 00:11:39,185
Funding issue.

233
00:11:39,735 --> 00:11:41,175
You don't have funding in West Africa.

234
00:11:41,785 --> 00:11:47,173
In Ghana, government are mostly not
interested in conservation Because

235
00:11:47,243 --> 00:11:50,743
the government want to channel its
resources into developmental project

236
00:11:50,753 --> 00:11:54,673
that bring fruit, and they are not
much interested in conservation.

237
00:11:54,743 --> 00:11:57,253
So getting funding in
this part of this world

238
00:12:01,255 --> 00:12:01,355
was very difficult for us.

239
00:12:01,355 --> 00:12:01,495
So we mostly live with, we mostly,
we, we, we, we mostly attract funding

240
00:12:01,495 --> 00:12:02,615
from international organization,
and that is quite challenging.

241
00:12:02,615 --> 00:12:04,245
Of course, we know what happens.

242
00:12:04,245 --> 00:12:09,745
We are always competing with big
international organization, people

243
00:12:09,745 --> 00:12:11,365
who are already expert in the field.

244
00:12:11,895 --> 00:12:15,035
So it become difficult for us to get
small funding to even support our project.

245
00:12:17,425 --> 00:12:17,885
That was the first thing they told me.

246
00:12:17,885 --> 00:12:17,895
Yeah.

247
00:12:17,895 --> 00:12:20,575
And the second one has
to be with the expert.

248
00:12:20,575 --> 00:12:22,465
When I started, there
were very few experts,

249
00:12:25,315 --> 00:12:25,545
and all the experts were coming

250
00:12:25,545 --> 00:12:26,415
from Western countries.

251
00:12:26,415 --> 00:12:28,285
Mm. The Western countries, yeah,
to come to West Africa, Eastern

252
00:12:28,865 --> 00:12:32,355
Africa, and Central Africa to work
on sharks, rays, and other megafauna.

253
00:12:32,875 --> 00:12:39,539
We did not have many, indigenous
scientists from West Africa who were

254
00:12:39,589 --> 00:12:43,709
actually keen on working on sharks and
rays, and this was quite challenging.

255
00:12:44,019 --> 00:12:48,539
So I remember one of my professors told
me I have to link up with some of the

256
00:12:48,539 --> 00:12:52,999
experts in the Western countries so
that I can get the needed mentorship

257
00:12:53,059 --> 00:12:56,899
and support from them, and that was what
I actually did and it's been working.

258
00:12:56,900 --> 00:12:57,319
Yeah.

259
00:12:57,599 --> 00:12:58,009
Yeah.

260
00:12:58,479 --> 00:13:01,519
For background for people listening
to the show, I can, I speak a little

261
00:13:01,519 --> 00:13:04,849
bit to this is Southern Africa, South
Africa, there's been a lot of stuff done.

262
00:13:04,899 --> 00:13:08,479
In East Africa, they have a
history of some research having

263
00:13:08,529 --> 00:13:10,289
going back, 100 years or so.

264
00:13:10,289 --> 00:13:16,389
But West Africa, anywhere from Angola,
Namibia, and up that whole coast there,

265
00:13:16,389 --> 00:13:22,149
Ghana, Benin, all the way up that, the
Gulf of Guinea states, it's just nothing.

266
00:13:22,179 --> 00:13:24,269
There's just almost nothing
in the literature in that.

267
00:13:24,319 --> 00:13:28,949
So I say when you're kind of pioneering a
whole area of the world, you really are.

268
00:13:29,239 --> 00:13:32,539
And again, a lot of people
listening from, North America and

269
00:13:32,539 --> 00:13:36,249
Australia, you kinda have a bit of
a roadmap and some sources to go to.

270
00:13:36,249 --> 00:13:40,029
But try to imagine yourself, in
Issah's situation where there's--

271
00:13:40,159 --> 00:13:44,629
he's basically gotta make it up
as you go along and figure it out.

272
00:13:45,089 --> 00:13:47,799
so as you kinda went along, I think
the first step is you recognized

273
00:13:48,389 --> 00:13:51,849
there was a problem, an issue here
with the sharks and the rays, and

274
00:13:51,849 --> 00:13:53,429
particularly the guitarfishes.

275
00:13:53,751 --> 00:13:58,471
And so, as you started out seeking
resources and everything, what were

276
00:13:58,471 --> 00:14:02,341
some of the other things like just
going out to the villages and stuff

277
00:14:02,341 --> 00:14:03,581
to find out what they're catching?

278
00:14:04,210 --> 00:14:07,565
Yeah, I have been doing that
for the past eight years.

279
00:14:08,121 --> 00:14:14,331
I mostly spend 10 days out of the 30
days in a month with these coastal

280
00:14:14,331 --> 00:14:21,051
fishing communities to collect fishery
data, to interview them, and also

281
00:14:21,081 --> 00:14:25,311
to also join them in their fishing
expedition to map key areas where they

282
00:14:25,311 --> 00:14:27,551
are targeting, especially guitarfish.

283
00:14:27,841 --> 00:14:32,671
So I've been doing this, and in
the last, I think 2022, we started

284
00:14:32,671 --> 00:14:33,921
focusing specifically on guitarfish.

285
00:14:35,061 --> 00:14:39,537
We found out that these species are on
the verge of extinction When we talk

286
00:14:39,617 --> 00:14:44,757
about guitarfish, whalefish and sawfish,
they are termed as shark-like rays.

287
00:14:44,767 --> 00:14:47,414
We all know that they are all termed
as rhino rays or shark-like rays.

288
00:14:47,414 --> 00:14:53,147
In Ghana, the, the sawfish is
currently functionally extinct.

289
00:14:53,847 --> 00:14:55,967
And the last time a fisherman
actually spotted the species

290
00:14:55,967 --> 00:14:57,097
was somewhere in the 1980s.

291
00:14:57,097 --> 00:15:02,487
And the whalefish, from our interview
with the fishermen, the last time they

292
00:15:02,487 --> 00:15:04,137
caught the species was somewhere in 2010.

293
00:15:04,677 --> 00:15:09,037
So that means that the guitarfish is
next to suffer local extinction if proper

294
00:15:09,327 --> 00:15:10,167
conservation measures are not put in

295
00:15:10,167 --> 00:15:10,237
place.

296
00:15:11,027 --> 00:15:16,982
That was the rationale, the reason
why in 2022, from our interviews and

297
00:15:17,102 --> 00:15:22,162
our publication, it revealed to us
that you must focus much attention on

298
00:15:22,162 --> 00:15:25,882
saving guitarfish as well, together
with other threatened sharks and rays.

299
00:15:26,042 --> 00:15:32,152
So our focus, our conservation
and awareness campaigns, and our

300
00:15:32,152 --> 00:15:36,422
conservation models is now channeling
towards the conservation of guitarfish.

301
00:15:36,422 --> 00:15:39,882
And we've been doing that using
about four different models

302
00:15:39,902 --> 00:15:43,982
altogether, which if time permits,
I would like to go through for you.

303
00:15:45,006 --> 00:15:48,272
When you started there, what kind
of references did you use to just

304
00:15:48,272 --> 00:15:53,222
to identify all the different sharks
and ray species that occur in Ghana?

305
00:15:53,806 --> 00:15:54,496
How'd you start?

306
00:15:54,526 --> 00:15:55,576
How'd you go about that?

307
00:15:56,206 --> 00:15:56,616
Yeah.

308
00:15:56,646 --> 00:16:00,616
Mostly for identification, I use
the Sharks and Rays of the World.

309
00:16:01,166 --> 00:16:01,666
I have a copy of

310
00:16:04,446 --> 00:16:04,550
the book there.

311
00:16:04,550 --> 00:16:04,592
Okay.

312
00:16:04,592 --> 00:16:04,634
Oh,

313
00:16:04,634 --> 00:16:04,676
interesting.

314
00:16:04,676 --> 00:16:05,026
Well-

315
00:16:05,516 --> 00:16:05,756
Yeah

316
00:16:05,806 --> 00:16:09,716
…
I didn't mean that as a setup
for my book, but, but I was cur-

317
00:16:09,716 --> 00:16:13,096
because there's no, like, there's
no real regional guides there.

318
00:16:13,526 --> 00:16:13,696
Yeah.

319
00:16:13,706 --> 00:16:14,426
So I So,

320
00:16:14,426 --> 00:16:15,246
so I use that.

321
00:16:15,286 --> 00:16:15,896
I, I have, I have-

322
00:16:15,896 --> 00:16:16,576
Thanks for the plug.

323
00:16:16,976 --> 00:16:17,366
Yeah.

324
00:16:17,376 --> 00:16:18,266
, I have three books.

325
00:16:18,366 --> 00:16:18,996
I bought three.

326
00:16:19,046 --> 00:16:20,056
Actually, I bought three.

327
00:16:20,116 --> 00:16:23,696
I've given two to my local volunteers
who are also studying them.

328
00:16:23,706 --> 00:16:23,736
Nice.

329
00:16:24,096 --> 00:16:25,386
Also keeping one copy.

330
00:16:26,556 --> 00:16:26,726
Nice.

331
00:16:26,726 --> 00:16:29,696
Yeah, so you mostly use the Sharks
and Rays of the World a lot.

332
00:16:30,236 --> 00:16:33,866
And anytime we have found identification
difficult, we also send it to expert,

333
00:16:34,446 --> 00:16:36,726
who happened to be Professor Skerritt.

334
00:16:37,136 --> 00:16:39,046
Yeah, he has also- Oh,
Skerritt … been supporting us.

335
00:16:39,076 --> 00:16:41,166
Skerritt has been supporting
us in identification.

336
00:16:41,696 --> 00:16:44,614
And we also collect DNA samples,
and we have a couple of samples

337
00:16:44,614 --> 00:16:44,756
which we are still looking for

338
00:16:48,416 --> 00:16:51,046
potential collaborators for analysis.

339
00:16:51,486 --> 00:16:54,986
So that's, that's really what we've
been doing with the identification.

340
00:16:55,679 --> 00:16:59,749
I know that being a young person, when
I start out going to countries where

341
00:16:59,749 --> 00:17:03,629
you have like, there's just no reference
guide at all really to start with, and

342
00:17:03,629 --> 00:17:07,136
you can use like a rays or sharks of
the world book, but you're having to

343
00:17:07,146 --> 00:17:10,266
go through all the sharks and rays of
the world to narrow it down to this one

344
00:17:10,266 --> 00:17:11,826
little part of the world where you're at.

345
00:17:12,196 --> 00:17:16,513
And not having anything to really
work off of, to start with.

346
00:17:16,563 --> 00:17:18,633
It can be challenging,
let's say, put it that way.

347
00:17:18,643 --> 00:17:20,743
It could be challenging, on everything.

348
00:17:20,773 --> 00:17:23,663
You've gone and you set up like
this, like a monitoring program

349
00:17:23,663 --> 00:17:26,653
now with all your, um, your

350
00:17:26,653 --> 00:17:26,733
different, uh-

351
00:17:26,733 --> 00:17:26,983
Yeah.

352
00:17:27,353 --> 00:17:31,073
We actually have a monitoring program,
and we started this monitoring program

353
00:17:31,073 --> 00:17:35,793
in 2020, and then we ended in 2022 in,

354
00:17:38,263 --> 00:17:39,333
I remember in March.

355
00:17:39,623 --> 00:17:39,853
And

356
00:17:39,853 --> 00:17:44,276
then after March, we actually
had a grant from the Save

357
00:17:44,276 --> 00:17:46,296
Our Seas Foundation to start.

358
00:17:46,486 --> 00:17:48,486
So we started in June 2022

359
00:17:50,616 --> 00:17:51,496
till 2025.

360
00:17:51,586 --> 00:17:54,836
We also ended because our
funding program actually ended.

361
00:17:54,846 --> 00:17:57,716
So we have about, four
or five years, monitoring

362
00:17:57,976 --> 00:18:02,486
program, and we've collected
very holistic information, fishes

363
00:18:02,876 --> 00:18:04,606
information on these sharks and rays.

364
00:18:05,770 --> 00:18:06,080
Okay.

365
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:07,080
Okay.

366
00:18:07,140 --> 00:18:07,610
That's good.

367
00:18:07,610 --> 00:18:11,330
Well, again, Save Our Seas has been a
great organization for funding projects

368
00:18:11,330 --> 00:18:14,730
like yours and stuff that generally can
be difficult to get any kind of funding

369
00:18:14,730 --> 00:18:16,410
in these different communities and stuff.

370
00:18:16,590 --> 00:18:20,210
Curious, how much coastline does
Ghana have bordering on the Atlantic?

371
00:18:21,050 --> 00:18:21,520
Yeah.

372
00:18:22,410 --> 00:18:26,790
Basically, our coastline is demarcated
into three different regions.

373
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,750
You have the West Coast, the East
Coast, and the Central Coast.

374
00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:31,530
Okay.

375
00:18:31,750 --> 00:18:32,780
So the… Yeah.

376
00:18:32,780 --> 00:18:38,000
So the West Coast is from Ghana, Côte
d'Ivoire border to the Ankobra River

377
00:18:38,290 --> 00:18:44,380
estuary, which happens to be at, uh,
Shama, and then, yeah, A- Ankobra Estuary.

378
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,850
And then from the Ankobra Estuary
to the Tema is the Central Coast.

379
00:18:49,620 --> 00:18:54,090
And then from Tema to Ghana-Togo
borderland is the Eastern Coast.

380
00:18:54,790 --> 00:18:55,260
Okay.

381
00:18:55,300 --> 00:18:55,640
Oh, wow.

382
00:18:55,650 --> 00:18:57,080
So we have the, yeah, three

383
00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:58,040
coastline.

384
00:18:58,040 --> 00:18:58,470
Okay.

385
00:18:58,490 --> 00:19:00,430
So, oh, so it's ac- so you got,
you're basically divided up

386
00:19:00,430 --> 00:19:01,780
into three different regions?

387
00:19:02,130 --> 00:19:02,150
Yeah.

388
00:19:02,150 --> 00:19:02,590
Yeah.

389
00:19:02,590 --> 00:19:07,800
We started our conservation research
work in the Western Coast, and then in

390
00:19:09,850 --> 00:19:12,780
2022, we moved gradually to the
Central Coast, and now we are

391
00:19:12,790 --> 00:19:14,457
covering the East Coast as well.

392
00:19:14,457 --> 00:19:15,270
So we are covering the entire coastline
of Ghana, working with close to 15

393
00:19:18,830 --> 00:19:19,000
different communities.

394
00:19:19,140 --> 00:19:19,900
You said

395
00:19:20,700 --> 00:19:21,840
15 communities?

396
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:22,850
Yeah, 15 communities.

397
00:19:22,910 --> 00:19:23,230
Yeah.

398
00:19:23,290 --> 00:19:23,690
Wow.

399
00:19:23,750 --> 00:19:24,310
Oh, good.

400
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,377
And do you have, monitors, people
that are checking those, monitoring

401
00:19:28,377 --> 00:19:30,097
those areas all the constantly, or?

402
00:19:31,317 --> 00:19:31,537
Yeah.

403
00:19:31,547 --> 00:19:34,620
Those that are working with,
we have local volunteers.

404
00:19:34,620 --> 00:19:36,660
We train them as our official biologists.

405
00:19:37,010 --> 00:19:41,720
So official biologists, what we do,
we pick them, we select them, those

406
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:46,460
who have actually attained high school
education, and then we train them, and

407
00:19:46,470 --> 00:19:51,390
we give them the resources to help us
collect fishery data on these species.

408
00:19:51,530 --> 00:19:57,810
And we also have about 20 fishery,
fisher biologists who also go to the

409
00:19:57,820 --> 00:20:03,620
sea and collect the GPS coordinates of
these species, of the sharks and rays.

410
00:20:03,900 --> 00:20:05,610
Are these volunteers that are doing this?

411
00:20:06,110 --> 00:20:10,290
Yeah, they're volunteers, but of course,
we give them some stipend, small stipend.

412
00:20:10,620 --> 00:20:10,910
Yeah.

413
00:20:10,930 --> 00:20:11,270
Yeah.

414
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:12,010
Yeah.

415
00:20:12,210 --> 00:20:13,480
Just to motivate them to-

416
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:14,460
Yeah, of course

417
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:15,770
…
do the

418
00:20:18,590 --> 00:20:18,620
work.

419
00:20:18,670 --> 00:20:18,930
Yeah.

420
00:20:18,930 --> 00:20:19,040
Because without that motivation, it
become difficult for them to, to-

421
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:19,880
Yeah … continue working with us.

422
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:20,290
Yeah.

423
00:20:20,290 --> 00:20:20,510
Yeah.

424
00:20:20,510 --> 00:20:24,000
And what made them originally interested
in participating in this program?

425
00:20:24,962 --> 00:20:25,072
Yeah.

426
00:20:25,072 --> 00:20:26,682
Initially- Were they just curious?

427
00:20:26,762 --> 00:20:29,082
Initially, when we wanted to
recruit them, they were cur-

428
00:20:30,072 --> 00:20:31,062
somehow curious about our work.

429
00:20:31,662 --> 00:20:34,482
Most of them, they don't want to work
with that because they were thinking

430
00:20:34,482 --> 00:20:40,372
that our work was going to be used
against their fishing activities.

431
00:20:41,012 --> 00:20:43,332
So most of them were very reluctant.

432
00:20:43,842 --> 00:20:47,632
So what we did, what actually
created the magic was that we

433
00:20:48,202 --> 00:20:50,852
started visiting most of them.

434
00:20:51,302 --> 00:20:55,642
We organized series of meeting in small
groups, like a group of five, four,

435
00:20:56,082 --> 00:20:58,762
three, and even up to maximum up to eight.

436
00:20:59,372 --> 00:21:02,922
So we did a lengthy presentation
and then talked to them about the

437
00:21:02,922 --> 00:21:06,122
conservations of sharks and rays,
and we also talked to them about our

438
00:21:06,152 --> 00:21:12,012
models, our work, how our work is going
to help them conserve sharks and rays

439
00:21:12,012 --> 00:21:13,432
for their future generation as well.

440
00:21:13,892 --> 00:21:18,872
So our model, we wanted to let them know
that our work is to strike a balance

441
00:21:18,982 --> 00:21:22,242
between conservation and utilization,
because we cannot stop them from fishing.

442
00:21:22,632 --> 00:21:25,242
But our work is to strike that balance
between conservation and utilization.

443
00:21:25,242 --> 00:21:29,312
And I think most of them actually
bought into our conservation model,

444
00:21:29,312 --> 00:21:31,582
and they started working with us.

445
00:21:32,662 --> 00:21:33,412
It takes some time.

446
00:21:33,432 --> 00:21:34,462
Of course, it takes some time.

447
00:21:34,462 --> 00:21:35,812
It take quite a lot of time.

448
00:21:35,812 --> 00:21:35,882
Yeah.

449
00:21:35,882 --> 00:21:36,242
Yeah.

450
00:21:36,272 --> 00:21:38,582
Because changing behavior
doesn't come easily.

451
00:21:39,063 --> 00:21:41,613
And do you have, like, a lot of your
guys now, you still have the same

452
00:21:41,613 --> 00:21:43,083
people you've had now for a while?

453
00:21:43,083 --> 00:21:46,863
You've been able to build people that
stay with the project for a while, or do

454
00:21:46,863 --> 00:21:50,283
you have people come and they go, and you
have to train new people all the time?

455
00:21:50,873 --> 00:21:51,203
Yeah.

456
00:21:51,243 --> 00:21:57,173
we have over 11 people, 11 fishermen
who have worked with us since 2019,

457
00:21:57,373 --> 00:21:58,593
and they are still working with us.

458
00:21:59,089 --> 00:21:59,819
They're still working well.

459
00:21:59,859 --> 00:22:03,149
But some also come, and
then they later move.

460
00:22:03,659 --> 00:22:06,079
Some too have also tended
to be migrant fishers.

461
00:22:06,159 --> 00:22:11,249
They move from Ghana to other neighboring
West Africa countries to work on to fish.

462
00:22:11,559 --> 00:22:14,449
So once they leave, then we
have to bring in new faces.

463
00:22:16,099 --> 00:22:16,539
Yeah.

464
00:22:16,609 --> 00:22:19,673
Do the guys take photographs of the
different species they're catching

465
00:22:19,673 --> 00:22:23,246
so you can voucher or document
specifically the types of the

466
00:22:23,246 --> 00:22:24,446
different species you're catching?

467
00:22:25,176 --> 00:22:25,416
Yeah.

468
00:22:25,416 --> 00:22:27,706
Every individual they record,

469
00:22:33,776 --> 00:22:34,226
they take a photograph of the individual.

470
00:22:34,226 --> 00:22:34,296
That's, that has always been the model.

471
00:22:34,296 --> 00:22:34,306
Mm-hmm.

472
00:22:34,306 --> 00:22:34,416
Every individual you record,
you have to take a photograph of

473
00:22:34,416 --> 00:22:36,676
it for- Yeah … confirmation.

474
00:22:36,676 --> 00:22:37,906
Yeah, that's what we've been doing.

475
00:22:38,136 --> 00:22:42,096
But sometimes you go then you
see several individuals of sharks

476
00:22:42,526 --> 00:22:46,256
that it become difficult for you
to take all the individual- Yeah

477
00:22:46,489 --> 00:22:48,019
pictures of every individual.

478
00:22:48,229 --> 00:22:51,909
So at that time, we mostly ask
them to take maybe two or three

479
00:22:51,909 --> 00:22:55,664
photographs of the several individuals-
Mm-hmm … within the coastline.

480
00:22:55,664 --> 00:22:56,469
Yeah.

481
00:22:56,529 --> 00:23:00,159
Are the sharks and rays, are they mostly
consumed in Ghana or are they exported?

482
00:23:01,199 --> 00:23:04,029
Yeah, for sharks and ray, they
are mostly consumed in Ghana.

483
00:23:04,689 --> 00:23:07,959
In West Africa, we are the highest
consumers of sharks and rays.

484
00:23:08,489 --> 00:23:08,839
Oh, really?

485
00:23:08,849 --> 00:23:09,359
Wow.

486
00:23:09,629 --> 00:23:09,899
Wow.

487
00:23:09,899 --> 00:23:10,319
I didn't know that.

488
00:23:10,319 --> 00:23:10,939
We are the highest.

489
00:23:10,989 --> 00:23:11,769
Yeah, actually.

490
00:23:11,769 --> 00:23:12,049
You did?

491
00:23:12,439 --> 00:23:18,129
And to the extent that, yeah, fishermen
from Ghana go to neighboring West Africa

492
00:23:18,169 --> 00:23:25,449
countries such as Mauritania, Senegal,
Gambia, Liberia, Nigeria, Guinea, to

493
00:23:25,539 --> 00:23:27,749
target sharks, rays, and guitarfish.

494
00:23:27,759 --> 00:23:31,519
So once they get them, they process
them to dry meat called- Mm … kakko

495
00:23:31,659 --> 00:23:34,519
in our local parlance, and then
they import them back to the

496
00:23:34,519 --> 00:23:38,475
country on trucks to supplement the
protein requirement of our people.

497
00:23:39,172 --> 00:23:39,972
That has been the trend.

498
00:23:39,995 --> 00:23:40,015
Yeah.

499
00:23:40,515 --> 00:23:45,415
So we are, we are regarded the highest
or the largest consumers of sharks

500
00:23:45,415 --> 00:23:47,015
and rays in this part of the world.

501
00:23:47,675 --> 00:23:52,005
How does that compare to other
fisheries, like other fish?

502
00:23:52,055 --> 00:23:55,945
Are sharks and rays consumed more
than any other commercial fisheries?

503
00:23:56,685 --> 00:24:00,735
Yeah, for now, for other commercial
fisheries like, like tunas and that-

504
00:24:00,885 --> 00:24:04,745
Yeah … other bony fishes, I will
not say that, that sharks and rays are

505
00:24:04,755 --> 00:24:07,065
highly consumed as compared to that.

506
00:24:07,065 --> 00:24:07,095
Okay.

507
00:24:07,465 --> 00:24:08,955
The issue is it's about survival.

508
00:24:09,515 --> 00:24:14,449
So when they don't have much like bony
fish to depend on, then- Gotcha … they

509
00:24:14,449 --> 00:24:17,612
have to focus on other alternative,
like the sharks, the rays, and the

510
00:24:17,612 --> 00:24:19,617
billfish, and that's exactly what

511
00:24:19,617 --> 00:24:20,873
they are doing.

512
00:24:20,873 --> 00:24:20,893
Yeah.

513
00:24:20,953 --> 00:24:24,963
Just to emphasize to people listening to
the show, you know, again, that haven't

514
00:24:24,963 --> 00:24:29,233
been to Africa, are not familiar, it's,
you're working with people that they

515
00:24:29,233 --> 00:24:31,203
gotta catch stuff to eat, basically.

516
00:24:31,203 --> 00:24:34,713
And so it's- That's it … you
gotta be very, trying to work that

517
00:24:34,723 --> 00:24:39,523
balance between, say, a, people,
food security, and conservation,

518
00:24:39,523 --> 00:24:41,603
which is not easy to do at all.

519
00:24:42,140 --> 00:24:45,420
So some of the things when you see
these different species, and guitarfish

520
00:24:45,430 --> 00:24:48,910
seem to be one of the primary
species they catch quite a few of.

521
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:50,780
Yeah.

522
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,970
Guitarfish, you see, in Ghana, they
mostly use three different gears in

523
00:24:56,010 --> 00:24:57,750
targeting sharks, rays, and guitarfish.

524
00:24:57,790 --> 00:24:59,470
We have the drift gillnet gear.

525
00:24:59,470 --> 00:25:04,350
The drift gillnet gears are mostly
used in the oceanic habitats to

526
00:25:04,350 --> 00:25:08,307
target sharks and other large
marine megafauna such as billfish.

527
00:25:08,677 --> 00:25:14,537
Then the bottom set net gears are
mostly used in the coastal habitat to

528
00:25:14,617 --> 00:25:17,927
target guitarfish and other ray species.

529
00:25:18,547 --> 00:25:22,877
So guitarfish, those who are using
the bottom set net mostly catch the

530
00:25:22,877 --> 00:25:24,397
guitarfish at a very high number.

531
00:25:24,961 --> 00:25:26,441
Do they get wedge fish very often?

532
00:25:26,981 --> 00:25:27,041
Do you

533
00:25:27,041 --> 00:25:27,061
see-

534
00:25:27,071 --> 00:25:29,971
No, for the wedge fish, the last
time the fishermen actually indicated

535
00:25:29,971 --> 00:25:33,141
to me that they've actually caught
the species was somewhere in 2010s.

536
00:25:33,731 --> 00:25:34,401
Unfortunately- Wow.

537
00:25:34,941 --> 00:25:35,431
Yeah.

538
00:25:35,581 --> 00:25:38,548
Since 2019, we have done extensive
survey, extensive, uh, landing site survey

539
00:25:38,548 --> 00:25:40,298
of sharks, rays, and guitarfish, and

540
00:25:43,648 --> 00:25:45,768
we've never spotted a wedge fish.

541
00:25:46,188 --> 00:25:48,028
, I had interaction with the fishermen.

542
00:25:48,338 --> 00:25:52,388
I've collected social science data on
the wedge fish, and the last time a

543
00:25:52,388 --> 00:25:52,928
fisherman indicated that he actually
caught the fish was somewhere in 2010s.

544
00:25:57,238 --> 00:25:57,648
Wow.

545
00:25:57,738 --> 00:26:00,658
What about some of the other,
like, things like sawfishes?

546
00:26:01,198 --> 00:26:03,058
Do they, they ever see those anymore?

547
00:26:03,168 --> 00:26:06,568
No, sawfish, sawfish is also
functioning extinct in Ghana.

548
00:26:06,956 --> 00:26:07,849
Yeah.

549
00:26:07,989 --> 00:26:13,899
So the last time, for our social science
interview data revealed to us that the

550
00:26:13,899 --> 00:26:19,549
last time fishermen caught or saw the
sawfish was somewhere in the 1980s.

551
00:26:19,549 --> 00:26:21,169
Till now, nobody has
even spotted the sawfish.

552
00:26:21,329 --> 00:26:21,639
nobody.

553
00:26:21,639 --> 00:26:22,269
Yeah.

554
00:26:22,269 --> 00:26:22,599
Nobody has.

555
00:26:23,329 --> 00:26:25,260
So it's functionally extinct.

556
00:26:25,263 --> 00:26:28,183
Is there any evidence, like say, I
know in a lot of places, particularly

557
00:26:28,183 --> 00:26:32,483
in East Africa, there's places you
can go, you'll see in some villages

558
00:26:32,483 --> 00:26:36,153
you'll see a lot of the rostra from
the sawfishes, but they were all

559
00:26:36,153 --> 00:26:40,703
caught back in the 1960s and '70s, but
they're just, they kept, people just

560
00:26:40,703 --> 00:26:43,193
have them around their places, curios.

561
00:26:43,243 --> 00:26:45,353
Do you see that in any
of the villages in Ghana?

562
00:26:45,933 --> 00:26:47,753
Yeah, I saw one rostra.

563
00:26:48,203 --> 00:26:51,193
I saw it in Busia community.

564
00:26:52,023 --> 00:26:55,573
That was the first time and I
actually spotted that, uh, the rostra.

565
00:26:56,493 --> 00:26:57,033
Okay.

566
00:26:57,853 --> 00:26:58,403
Yeah, okay.

567
00:26:58,403 --> 00:27:01,563
So yeah, so again, the things are,
yeah, it's not seen that frequently

568
00:27:01,563 --> 00:27:02,253
with some of those species.

569
00:27:02,493 --> 00:27:05,563
I'm just going down a list of a few
different species and this is a little

570
00:27:05,563 --> 00:27:09,303
bit of my just curiosity because I West
Africa is just an area I don't know.

571
00:27:09,303 --> 00:27:11,133
But how about the devil rays?

572
00:27:11,133 --> 00:27:11,933
Do you see those?

573
00:27:12,023 --> 00:27:13,093
They caught very frequently?

574
00:27:13,493 --> 00:27:15,813
Yeah, the devil rays,
especially the mobula species.

575
00:27:16,413 --> 00:27:18,763
Yeah, the mobula species,
they mostly cut them.

576
00:27:18,903 --> 00:27:20,483
The manta rays, they mostly cut them.

577
00:27:20,483 --> 00:27:20,923
They mostly-

578
00:27:22,083 --> 00:27:22,403
Okay.

579
00:27:22,403 --> 00:27:26,438
They- Especially the fishermen using
the drift game gears, they mostly land

580
00:27:26,438 --> 00:27:27,023
them.

581
00:27:27,023 --> 00:27:27,593
Okay.

582
00:27:27,733 --> 00:27:28,013
Okay.

583
00:27:28,013 --> 00:27:31,653
So they, they still catch those
kinda regularly then, uh, with the-

584
00:27:31,873 --> 00:27:33,323
Yeah, it's very, very regular for that.

585
00:27:33,503 --> 00:27:33,683
Very, very

586
00:27:33,683 --> 00:27:33,922
regular.

587
00:27:34,062 --> 00:27:34,302
Yeah.

588
00:27:34,302 --> 00:27:39,238
If, two or three, if uh, say two or three
canoes or boat actually lands sharks

589
00:27:39,238 --> 00:27:43,157
and rays, you definitely- Mm-hmm … see
one, one or two mobula or devil rays.

590
00:27:43,157 --> 00:27:43,377
Yeah.

591
00:27:43,388 --> 00:27:43,638
Okay.

592
00:27:43,928 --> 00:27:46,388
Most of the fishery is all
coastal, is that correct?

593
00:27:47,018 --> 00:27:48,128
Mostly coastal fishery?

594
00:27:48,668 --> 00:27:50,868
Yeah, mostly are, they
are coastal fisheries.

595
00:27:50,898 --> 00:27:51,158
Yeah.

596
00:27:51,448 --> 00:27:51,908
Yeah.

597
00:27:52,018 --> 00:27:52,238
Yeah.

598
00:27:52,308 --> 00:27:57,328
Have you ever worked with the Norwegians
and the Food and Agriculture Organization

599
00:27:57,338 --> 00:28:01,731
have their research vessel, uh, the
Dr. Fridtjof Nansen, usually does

600
00:28:01,731 --> 00:28:05,351
surveys up and down the West Coast,
East Coast, they alternate years.

601
00:28:05,351 --> 00:28:08,622
Have you ever been in contact
with them to see what's kind of

602
00:28:08,622 --> 00:28:10,112
deep sea species are being caught?

603
00:28:10,952 --> 00:28:13,002
No, I've never contacted them.

604
00:28:13,432 --> 00:28:17,292
I recently had a discussion
with the industrial fisheries.

605
00:28:17,815 --> 00:28:18,445
Yeah.

606
00:28:18,485 --> 00:28:22,732
And I am actually planning
to start my survey in the

607
00:28:22,732 --> 00:28:23,422
industrial fisheries as well.

608
00:28:23,422 --> 00:28:23,782
Mm-hmm.

609
00:28:24,792 --> 00:28:27,072
Especially Tema and
Takoradi, yeah, in Ghana.

610
00:28:27,282 --> 00:28:27,512
Yeah.

611
00:28:27,512 --> 00:28:31,402
So our plan for next year is to
start working with the industrial

612
00:28:31,542 --> 00:28:34,932
fisheries as well, because we've
worked with artIssahnal fisheries,

613
00:28:34,932 --> 00:28:35,882
the semi-industrial fisheries.

614
00:28:36,222 --> 00:28:38,592
We've worked with the
semi-industrial fisheries as well.

615
00:28:38,842 --> 00:28:39,282
Yeah.

616
00:28:39,632 --> 00:28:43,952
But the industrial fisheries is
the only remaining sector where

617
00:28:44,022 --> 00:28:45,887
we need to start working on.

618
00:28:45,937 --> 00:28:48,557
And we are planning to work
with them somewhere next year.

619
00:28:49,427 --> 00:28:49,797
Mm-hmm.

620
00:28:49,797 --> 00:28:52,117
Especially when we get funding
from Save Our Seas Foundation.

621
00:28:53,010 --> 00:28:53,587
Yeah.

622
00:28:53,897 --> 00:28:54,217
Yeah.

623
00:28:54,437 --> 00:28:57,447
When you started out, you obviously worked
on a lot of different, you worked on like

624
00:28:57,447 --> 00:29:01,777
a lot of different groups and stuff from
plants and insects and different things.

625
00:29:02,157 --> 00:29:03,567
Did you feel like that helped?

626
00:29:04,457 --> 00:29:07,637
A lot of it was around the
overall biodiversity theme, right?

627
00:29:07,657 --> 00:29:09,787
You did a lot, you were mostly
doing biodiversity, but you

628
00:29:09,787 --> 00:29:10,857
worked on different groups.

629
00:29:11,187 --> 00:29:15,577
Did that kinda help prepare you for when
you moved over to doing elasmobranchs?

630
00:29:16,430 --> 00:29:17,297
Yeah, exactly.

631
00:29:17,357 --> 00:29:23,677
It really prepared me because most of the
models I use in saving these terrestrial

632
00:29:23,677 --> 00:29:30,004
species were pushed to the marine
ecosystem because you don't change much

633
00:29:30,004 --> 00:29:31,844
of the models, much of the activities.

634
00:29:31,874 --> 00:29:32,194
For example, when you talk
about conservation awareness and

635
00:29:32,194 --> 00:29:32,694
education campaign, you can use
the same models to also work on the

636
00:29:39,224 --> 00:29:39,784
marine species.

637
00:29:40,624 --> 00:29:43,184
When we're also talking about,
for example, collecting key

638
00:29:43,184 --> 00:29:45,884
baseline information, so the
key baseline information can

639
00:29:45,884 --> 00:29:47,004
also model to marine species.

640
00:29:47,274 --> 00:29:53,054
So it really prepared me to be a
champion of the marine ecosystem.

641
00:29:53,764 --> 00:29:56,984
Because you're involved with the
IUCN freshwater fish group as well?

642
00:29:57,353 --> 00:29:57,373
Yeah,

643
00:29:58,083 --> 00:30:00,723
I was very, very much
involved in the activities.

644
00:30:00,853 --> 00:30:05,499
I collected some key baseline information
for them some couple of years ago.

645
00:30:05,499 --> 00:30:08,193
But now, it seems my focus
has shifted a little, and,

646
00:30:09,093 --> 00:30:11,663
I'm now focusing
specifically on sharks and

647
00:30:11,663 --> 00:30:12,540
rays.

648
00:30:12,543 --> 00:30:12,923
Yeah.

649
00:30:12,993 --> 00:30:16,003
Well, the reason I wanted, wanted that
because I think-- because people, again,

650
00:30:16,033 --> 00:30:19,866
we highlight this because most people
to get where you're like, you are now,

651
00:30:19,933 --> 00:30:21,233
you did a lot of different things.

652
00:30:21,233 --> 00:30:22,873
You had a very broad background.

653
00:30:22,923 --> 00:30:26,756
And a thing I try to emphasize to
young people is like, you don't have

654
00:30:26,756 --> 00:30:28,706
to be doing sharks and rays every day.

655
00:30:28,876 --> 00:30:32,689
- It's all about skills, but learning
different groups, whether it's plants,

656
00:30:32,699 --> 00:30:35,769
insects, working with freshwater fishes.

657
00:30:36,009 --> 00:30:39,609
But all that stuff helped prepare
you for when you went into a whole

658
00:30:39,609 --> 00:30:42,359
new area with the sharks and rays.

659
00:30:42,829 --> 00:30:45,979
I guess young people listening to
this episode, don't dismiss, like if

660
00:30:45,979 --> 00:30:50,583
you can work on some other groups and
learn some other skills, don't pass it.

661
00:30:50,613 --> 00:30:53,853
Very, very important because I
believe all the models, all the

662
00:30:53,853 --> 00:30:57,953
activities, all the knowledge you
gain from other groups can easily be

663
00:30:57,953 --> 00:30:59,953
transferable to the others as well.

664
00:30:59,953 --> 00:31:00,313
Yeah.

665
00:31:00,923 --> 00:31:01,193
Yeah.

666
00:31:01,303 --> 00:31:01,703
Yeah.

667
00:31:01,713 --> 00:31:04,113
Do you mention you had a relative,
was it an uncle or somebody,

668
00:31:04,113 --> 00:31:05,593
worked in wildlife as well?

669
00:31:05,967 --> 00:31:09,477
Early in your career you had a friend
or a relative who worked in wildlife?

670
00:31:10,124 --> 00:31:10,584
No.

671
00:31:10,584 --> 00:31:13,324
My uncle was actually
a fisher, a fisherman.

672
00:31:13,354 --> 00:31:13,854
Okay.

673
00:31:14,214 --> 00:31:14,494
Yeah.

674
00:31:14,494 --> 00:31:14,824
Okay.

675
00:31:15,314 --> 00:31:19,164
So I visited, I visited him, and he
gave me the opportunity to see shark for

676
00:31:19,164 --> 00:31:20,584
the first time, and I got fascinated-

677
00:31:20,584 --> 00:31:21,054
Okay

678
00:31:21,614 --> 00:31:21,964
…
and then started

679
00:31:23,314 --> 00:31:23,514
working on them.

680
00:31:23,664 --> 00:31:23,684
Yeah.

681
00:31:23,684 --> 00:31:23,724
Okay.

682
00:31:23,724 --> 00:31:23,764
Um,

683
00:31:23,764 --> 00:31:26,714
So your uncle has inspired
you in a way, as a fisherman.

684
00:31:26,714 --> 00:31:27,284
Exactly.

685
00:31:27,284 --> 00:31:27,674
Exactly.

686
00:31:27,744 --> 00:31:27,954
Yeah.

687
00:31:28,774 --> 00:31:31,494
Let me ask you this, like, when
you first saw a shark, like, in

688
00:31:31,494 --> 00:31:33,114
person, what were your thoughts?

689
00:31:33,664 --> 00:31:37,854
I couldn't believe that Ghana's waters
actually contained sharks and rays.

690
00:31:37,904 --> 00:31:38,754
I couldn't believe it.

691
00:31:38,844 --> 00:31:39,294
Right.

692
00:31:39,304 --> 00:31:43,584
I've heard a lot about sharks, that
sharks are actually man eaters when you

693
00:31:44,174 --> 00:31:45,464
-
Yeah, that's how we all learn.

694
00:31:45,464 --> 00:31:45,714
Yeah.

695
00:31:47,594 --> 00:31:47,694
Yeah.

696
00:31:47,844 --> 00:31:48,984
So when I, when I saw a shark
for the first time, I was

697
00:31:48,984 --> 00:31:52,154
so fascinated about- Yeah

698
00:31:52,294 --> 00:31:52,704
yeah.

699
00:31:52,704 --> 00:31:55,764
And I, unfortunately for
me, I w- I saw mako shark.

700
00:31:55,764 --> 00:31:58,234
You can see how- The mako shark … huge
mako shark, yeah, mako shark

701
00:32:00,364 --> 00:32:00,514
was.

702
00:32:00,824 --> 00:32:00,844
Wow.

703
00:32:00,844 --> 00:32:03,264
So I got fascinated, I got fascinated
about it, and then I decided to, yeah-

704
00:32:03,324 --> 00:32:04,024
How big was it?

705
00:32:04,734 --> 00:32:07,344
Yeah, it was, like, about 200 centimeters.

706
00:32:07,934 --> 00:32:08,234
Yeah.

707
00:32:08,244 --> 00:32:08,734
Wow.

708
00:32:08,794 --> 00:32:08,984
Okay.

709
00:32:08,984 --> 00:32:09,054
Yeah.

710
00:32:09,314 --> 00:32:10,434
It was a proper shark.

711
00:32:10,464 --> 00:32:10,834
Yeah.

712
00:32:10,984 --> 00:32:11,334
Yeah.

713
00:32:11,334 --> 00:32:12,084
It's a good shark.

714
00:32:12,084 --> 00:32:12,844
It's a good size shark.

715
00:32:12,844 --> 00:32:13,164
Yeah.

716
00:32:13,164 --> 00:32:13,429
Yeah.

717
00:32:13,429 --> 00:32:13,694
Yeah.

718
00:32:13,714 --> 00:32:14,484
I got a question for you.

719
00:32:14,484 --> 00:32:17,717
So when you went back and you told
your mom and dad you're interested

720
00:32:17,717 --> 00:32:19,447
in sharks, what was their reaction?

721
00:32:19,897 --> 00:32:24,127
My mom, my colleagues, all of them
actually, they were not happy.

722
00:32:24,917 --> 00:32:32,067
They thought I wa- They, they, they
thought I was going to die because

723
00:32:32,097 --> 00:32:34,607
the sharks were going to eat me up.

724
00:32:34,607 --> 00:32:38,767
So- So actually my mom was
trying to discourage me.

725
00:32:38,797 --> 00:32:41,007
Some of my colleagues also
were trying to discourage me.

726
00:32:41,467 --> 00:32:43,347
They were telling me, "No,
you don't have to do that.

727
00:32:43,357 --> 00:32:46,177
You have to focus on your
dragonflies and damselflies.

728
00:32:46,177 --> 00:32:47,267
You are doing marvelous work.

729
00:32:47,607 --> 00:32:49,597
Everybody is now seeing
what you are doing.

730
00:32:49,607 --> 00:32:51,557
Why do you want to move
to sharks and rays?

731
00:32:51,777 --> 00:32:53,027
that's n- really not going to

732
00:32:55,437 --> 00:32:55,797
help you." Yeah.

733
00:32:55,907 --> 00:32:57,207
Uh, so they were not happy at all.

734
00:32:57,207 --> 00:32:58,016
They were not happy at

735
00:32:58,016 --> 00:32:58,177
all.

736
00:32:58,177 --> 00:33:00,427
They, yeah, they weren't,
they weren't happy about it.

737
00:33:00,427 --> 00:33:02,254
They ha- so now that you've gone on,
you've done all that you've had…

738
00:33:02,264 --> 00:33:04,424
You're very accomplished
now, what do they feel now?

739
00:33:04,424 --> 00:33:08,294
I actually asked one of my colleagues when
I won the Whitley Award that, "How do you

740
00:33:08,294 --> 00:33:10,584
feel now?" And it's like a turn up to me.

741
00:33:10,614 --> 00:33:14,484
They are all so happy that I
actually challenged myself.

742
00:33:14,484 --> 00:33:15,594
I did not listen to them.

743
00:33:15,604 --> 00:33:21,464
I challenged myself, and I moved on to do
what I actually, was actually born to do.

744
00:33:21,734 --> 00:33:22,824
And they are now happy.

745
00:33:23,124 --> 00:33:23,694
They are now happy.

746
00:33:23,744 --> 00:33:26,224
it's a great story because
there was, like, no roadmap.

747
00:33:26,224 --> 00:33:30,084
You just had this passion and this
direction to pursue the sharks and rays.

748
00:33:30,424 --> 00:33:34,104
I love talking to people like you, 'cause
were just like, "I'm gonna do this." And

749
00:33:34,104 --> 00:33:36,976
even though there was no real- roadmap.

750
00:33:36,986 --> 00:33:40,906
There were no mentors in Ghana that
you could really talk to directly,

751
00:33:40,906 --> 00:33:44,683
but you just, you saw something
there, and you just pursued it.

752
00:33:44,763 --> 00:33:47,803
I love stories like that here and
that different, different- Thank you

753
00:33:47,803 --> 00:33:49,243
… different types of stuff like that.

754
00:33:49,243 --> 00:33:52,936
And so, do you have a following of people
now that are all eager to be the next

755
00:33:53,016 --> 00:33:54,526
to kind of follow in your footsteps?

756
00:33:55,290 --> 00:33:55,976
Yeah.

757
00:33:55,996 --> 00:34:02,066
In my university, I'm mentoring students
who are interested in marine megafauna

758
00:34:02,336 --> 00:34:03,266
such as sharks, ray, dolphins, billfish.

759
00:34:03,266 --> 00:34:08,976
And recently, I supported two master
student, one actually work on dolphins

760
00:34:09,056 --> 00:34:12,936
and one also work on billfish,
and I'm trying to inspire them.

761
00:34:12,946 --> 00:34:13,706
They are all ladies.

762
00:34:13,816 --> 00:34:16,490
Fortunately for me, they are all
females, and I'm trying to push

763
00:34:16,490 --> 00:34:21,090
them, they are to be champion of
conservation in this area as well.

764
00:34:21,090 --> 00:34:24,480
So I'm mentoring a lot of guys
working on sharks and rays.

765
00:34:24,620 --> 00:34:28,390
Two of my undergraduate students
are working on sharks, and one is

766
00:34:28,390 --> 00:34:31,690
also working on guitarfish, which is
quite- Wow … yeah, quite inspiring.

767
00:34:31,690 --> 00:34:31,980
Oh, cool.

768
00:34:31,990 --> 00:34:32,010
Yeah.

769
00:34:32,670 --> 00:34:32,870
Good.

770
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:33,920
Yeah.

771
00:34:33,930 --> 00:34:36,480
Okay, this is a science nerd
question, but how many species of

772
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,050
guitarfish do you have in Ghana?

773
00:34:38,690 --> 00:34:38,920
Yeah.

774
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,210
So far we have documented
four species of guitarfish.

775
00:34:41,210 --> 00:34:41,220
Four?

776
00:34:41,220 --> 00:34:41,350
These are the s- yeah, spinebared
guitarfish, whitespotted

777
00:34:41,350 --> 00:34:41,910
guitarfish, bluchin guitarfish,
and the common guitarfish.

778
00:34:41,910 --> 00:34:42,096
These are

779
00:34:42,096 --> 00:34:42,600
the four-

780
00:34:42,630 --> 00:34:42,640
Oh,

781
00:34:50,250 --> 00:34:50,860
okay

782
00:34:50,860 --> 00:34:51,750
…
main species I've documented so

783
00:34:52,090 --> 00:34:52,120
far.

784
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:52,550
Okay.

785
00:34:52,610 --> 00:34:54,660
Wow, you got a pretty good
number of species there.

786
00:34:54,670 --> 00:34:56,420
Very several different species to work on.

787
00:34:56,430 --> 00:34:57,320
That's pretty awesome.

788
00:34:57,610 --> 00:35:00,620
Most areas just have, like, one,
but, seems like Africa seems to be

789
00:35:00,620 --> 00:35:02,660
a hotbed for guitarfish species.

790
00:35:02,670 --> 00:35:03,480
That's for sure.

791
00:35:03,910 --> 00:35:07,260
Are you a lecturer with the
university and you run your NGO?

792
00:35:07,260 --> 00:35:09,060
Is that your situation?

793
00:35:09,070 --> 00:35:09,580
Yeah, that's correct.

794
00:35:09,580 --> 00:35:09,810
That is correct.

795
00:35:09,810 --> 00:35:10,110
Okay.

796
00:35:10,140 --> 00:35:10,370
Yeah.

797
00:35:10,403 --> 00:35:14,033
It's kinda nice 'cause you have
students that you can mentor, bring

798
00:35:14,033 --> 00:35:17,743
through the university system,
and then you got an easy source

799
00:35:17,743 --> 00:35:20,066
of volunteer helpers for your NGO.

800
00:35:20,436 --> 00:35:20,576
Yeah.

801
00:35:21,906 --> 00:35:23,236
You don't have much funding.

802
00:35:23,776 --> 00:35:24,116
Yeah.

803
00:35:24,936 --> 00:35:27,056
So the little funding we are, we have,
we channel most of the funding to

804
00:35:27,126 --> 00:35:31,436
these local volunteers who are mostly
stationed in their various communities

805
00:35:31,436 --> 00:35:32,476
to support our conservation activities.

806
00:35:33,466 --> 00:35:38,726
So I'm working in the university because I
withdraw salary from the university, yeah,

807
00:35:38,756 --> 00:35:41,316
which also supports me and other staff.

808
00:35:42,026 --> 00:35:45,466
As you're lecturing people and you're
talking about your work, even with

809
00:35:45,466 --> 00:35:49,576
the volunteers that you're talking
to, do you find there is more interest

810
00:35:49,586 --> 00:35:53,146
from students in studying sharks
because there's something that you've

811
00:35:53,146 --> 00:35:56,763
established there, like a bit of a
footprint to say, "Hey, you know what?

812
00:35:56,813 --> 00:35:58,363
There could be more studies of sharks"?

813
00:35:58,909 --> 00:36:03,586
Of course, I have been very inspirational
to most of my students I actually mentor.

814
00:36:04,556 --> 00:36:08,166
And it's so interesting to see that
some of the students mostly come to

815
00:36:08,206 --> 00:36:11,386
you and tell you, "Hey, we've seen
that you are doing this and doing that.

816
00:36:11,386 --> 00:36:14,906
You are working on sharks and rays, so
we also want to follow your footstep."

817
00:36:15,916 --> 00:36:16,656
So yeah.

818
00:36:16,656 --> 00:36:20,899
So anytime I get that information from
the student, I get very, very happy

819
00:36:20,899 --> 00:36:25,901
that at least… But when I started, I
never got the opportunity to go to any

820
00:36:25,901 --> 00:36:29,909
lecturer, go to any person, especially
in Ghana, in West Africa- Mm-hmm

821
00:36:29,940 --> 00:36:33,590
and ask the person, "Oh, I want to
follow your footstep." But now, if

822
00:36:33,590 --> 00:36:36,439
students are coming to you that they
want to follow your footstep, that's

823
00:36:36,439 --> 00:36:39,402
quite a blessing, and it gives me
the energy to continue with the work-

824
00:36:39,402 --> 00:36:41,889
Yeah … and to continue mentoring them.

825
00:36:42,039 --> 00:36:42,229
Yeah.

826
00:36:42,469 --> 00:36:43,279
I can imagine.

827
00:36:43,519 --> 00:36:43,959
Yeah.

828
00:36:44,009 --> 00:36:44,399
Yeah.

829
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:44,780
Yeah.

830
00:36:44,830 --> 00:36:47,540
So obviously you're, inspiring
like the next generation or the--

831
00:36:47,669 --> 00:36:51,573
really the first generation after
you of young shark researchers and

832
00:36:51,573 --> 00:36:53,233
rays and young conservationists.

833
00:36:53,443 --> 00:36:56,049
Have some of your students, do you
have involved with doing like any

834
00:36:56,049 --> 00:36:57,853
kind of Red List assessments yet?

835
00:36:58,053 --> 00:36:58,403
Yeah.

836
00:36:58,453 --> 00:37:02,723
For the Red List assessment, I think
the last time we did was in 2020.

837
00:37:05,866 --> 00:37:06,746
It was a workshop.

838
00:37:06,846 --> 00:37:11,133
REMAS sent us some key areas,
some key species that we

839
00:37:11,133 --> 00:37:12,423
want to do the Red List on.

840
00:37:12,873 --> 00:37:19,513
So I have two of my master's students
with whom I've talked to, and I asked

841
00:37:19,513 --> 00:37:25,003
them that they should start preparing
their data, because very soon I'll be

842
00:37:25,003 --> 00:37:28,733
pushing some of these things to them for
them to start sending information to the

843
00:37:28,993 --> 00:37:31,166
IUCN for the Re- Red List assessment.

844
00:37:32,158 --> 00:37:32,548
Yeah.

845
00:37:32,598 --> 00:37:34,138
With all your students, sounds
like you're build- you're

846
00:37:34,148 --> 00:37:35,848
building quite a program there.

847
00:37:35,898 --> 00:37:39,818
For your young student, particularly in
Ghana or in West Africa, if you ha- were--

848
00:37:40,408 --> 00:37:43,118
was asking you, like, for advice, what
kind of advice would you give a young

849
00:37:43,118 --> 00:37:46,782
person starting out, like, how to get
going, how to get started in this field?

850
00:37:47,392 --> 00:37:47,602
Yeah.

851
00:37:47,602 --> 00:37:49,622
So this is the advice I always tell them.

852
00:37:50,048 --> 00:37:53,978
The marine ecosystem provide a
lot of opportunities for the young

853
00:37:53,978 --> 00:37:58,428
generation, but the opportunities
come with so many challenges.

854
00:37:59,258 --> 00:38:03,158
So I always advise them, when
they start their work in marine

855
00:38:03,158 --> 00:38:05,428
conservation, they need to be bold.

856
00:38:05,668 --> 00:38:06,468
That's the first thing.

857
00:38:06,868 --> 00:38:09,658
They need to be committed, and
they also need to be persistent.

858
00:38:10,318 --> 00:38:14,648
Be persistent in the form that
changing behavior, changing the

859
00:38:15,018 --> 00:38:16,018
behavior of people takes time.

860
00:38:16,498 --> 00:38:19,518
So if you are not persistent,
if you don't have the patience,

861
00:38:19,588 --> 00:38:21,938
there's no way you can win them.

862
00:38:22,708 --> 00:38:25,718
When I started, it took me
more than six years to be able

863
00:38:25,788 --> 00:38:27,908
to win just two fishermen.

864
00:38:28,948 --> 00:38:32,878
Six months, it took me six months to win
two fishermen to come and work with me.

865
00:38:33,428 --> 00:38:34,528
But I was always on them.

866
00:38:34,558 --> 00:38:35,558
I was persistent.

867
00:38:35,818 --> 00:38:39,878
I go to them, I talk to them, and they
was like, "No, we don't want to work with

868
00:38:39,878 --> 00:38:43,558
you because we know your work is going
to use against our work," and that stuff.

869
00:38:43,598 --> 00:38:43,988
Mm-hmm.

870
00:38:44,278 --> 00:38:51,008
But since I was persistent, at a point in
time in our life, I was able to win them.

871
00:38:51,308 --> 00:38:55,198
So these are the three things
I mostly convince students and

872
00:38:55,198 --> 00:38:56,348
the early career scientists.

873
00:38:56,608 --> 00:39:00,248
When they start their conservation
work, their conservation career in

874
00:39:00,298 --> 00:39:05,475
marine conservation, they need to
be bold, committed, and persistent

875
00:39:06,230 --> 00:39:10,540
If they are able to get this trade,
there's no way they can show as

876
00:39:10,540 --> 00:39:12,493
conservationists in the marine ecosystem.

877
00:39:12,933 --> 00:39:13,433
Yeah.

878
00:39:13,573 --> 00:39:13,883
Yeah.

879
00:39:14,103 --> 00:39:16,253
It's been a super
fascinating, conversation.

880
00:39:16,493 --> 00:39:17,483
So here's a question for you.

881
00:39:17,483 --> 00:39:21,553
Where do you see your career
going over the next 10, 20 years?

882
00:39:21,553 --> 00:39:24,113
You're such a young guy and
you've done so much already.

883
00:39:24,593 --> 00:39:25,953
Where do you see yourself going?

884
00:39:27,713 --> 00:39:32,553
Actually, this is a question people
ask me, I find it difficult to answer.

885
00:39:33,713 --> 00:39:34,263
That's okay.

886
00:39:34,263 --> 00:39:35,073
No, no pressure.

887
00:39:36,393 --> 00:39:36,413
Yeah.

888
00:39:36,413 --> 00:39:42,083
The next, the next 10 to 15 or 20
years, I still want to work in marine

889
00:39:42,133 --> 00:39:46,453
conservation, spear the con- still
spearheading the conservation of sharks,

890
00:39:46,503 --> 00:39:51,743
rays, guitarfish, and other marine
megafauna, such as dolphin, billfish.

891
00:39:52,133 --> 00:39:56,853
And I also want to see myself train as
many early career scientists as possible,

892
00:39:57,243 --> 00:40:02,213
who will also be champion of marine
conservation in this part of the world.

893
00:40:02,453 --> 00:40:04,263
That's Western and Central Africa.

894
00:40:04,573 --> 00:40:06,763
When you talk about Western and
Central Africa, we have very few

895
00:40:07,003 --> 00:40:10,083
people championing the conservation
of sharks, rays, guitarfish,

896
00:40:10,113 --> 00:40:10,423
and other marine megafauna.

897
00:40:11,413 --> 00:40:18,603
And I, my, as part of my work, I want to
see many people trooping into this, area.

898
00:40:18,923 --> 00:40:28,056
In the next 10, 20 years, I also want
to support government, NGOs, all of

899
00:40:28,296 --> 00:40:31,806
us to come together to establish MPA.

900
00:40:32,576 --> 00:40:35,576
I'm talking about MPA, not MP on paper.

901
00:40:35,576 --> 00:40:38,436
Effective MPA that can support- Mm-hmm
… the management of these species.

902
00:40:38,746 --> 00:40:43,746
Because in Ghana, we started our
MPA and which is currently on

903
00:40:43,916 --> 00:40:45,716
the paper, but we want something
that is quite effective, that can

904
00:40:48,656 --> 00:40:50,936
support the management of these
species, and that's what I want.

905
00:40:50,936 --> 00:40:57,023
In the next 10, 15, 20 years, I want to
see that we have a regional framework,

906
00:40:57,303 --> 00:41:01,003
a regional framework that supports the
management of these species as well.

907
00:41:02,727 --> 00:41:03,297
That's great.

908
00:41:03,347 --> 00:41:05,547
Well, we're definitely gonna have
to have you come back here in the

909
00:41:05,547 --> 00:41:08,457
future and talk to us a bit more
and update us what's going on.

910
00:41:08,457 --> 00:41:11,277
And now that we have you on tape
with your plans for the future,

911
00:41:11,277 --> 00:41:13,727
we'll hold that, it'll live on
the internet forever, hopefully.

912
00:41:13,977 --> 00:41:17,697
Issah, it's been a wonderful time having
you on there, and we're so glad, I'm so

913
00:41:17,697 --> 00:41:20,657
glad we connected at Sharks International.

914
00:41:21,037 --> 00:41:24,287
And if you're a young person out there,
that's definitely the go-to conference

915
00:41:24,287 --> 00:41:25,777
where you meet wonderful people.

916
00:41:25,977 --> 00:41:28,417
For me, it was great meeting
you and as many of the other

917
00:41:28,417 --> 00:41:30,017
young people up and coming.

918
00:41:30,387 --> 00:41:34,107
We'll definitely keep in touch with you
and have you back on in the future to

919
00:41:34,617 --> 00:41:36,337
update us on what's happening in Ghana.

920
00:41:36,877 --> 00:41:38,477
Thank you so much for coming on the show.

921
00:41:38,487 --> 00:41:38,697
Absolutely.

922
00:41:38,997 --> 00:41:39,627
Thank you, Issah.

923
00:41:39,627 --> 00:41:40,277
We appreciate it.

924
00:41:40,770 --> 00:41:41,027
Yeah.

925
00:41:41,067 --> 00:41:43,137
Thank you, Dave and Andrew, for having me.

926
00:41:43,877 --> 00:41:46,407
And it's a pleasure having me
to talk about my work and my

927
00:41:46,407 --> 00:41:46,687
conservation work in Africa.

928
00:41:49,107 --> 00:41:49,687
Absolutely.

929
00:41:49,697 --> 00:41:49,997
You bet.

930
00:41:49,997 --> 00:41:50,477
Absolutely.

931
00:41:50,917 --> 00:41:51,307
Thanks.

932
00:41:51,447 --> 00:41:51,857
Thank you.

933
00:41:52,220 --> 00:41:55,016
Thank you, Issah, for joining
us on the Beyond Jaws podcast.

934
00:41:55,026 --> 00:41:56,426
It was so great to have you on.

935
00:41:56,426 --> 00:41:59,926
Now, Dave, I know why you texted
me from Sharks International right

936
00:41:59,926 --> 00:42:03,486
away, and you're like, "Yo, we have
to have Issah Seidu on because this

937
00:42:03,516 --> 00:42:05,506
kid is…" I say, I call him a kid.

938
00:42:05,516 --> 00:42:08,756
He's obviously an adult, but for me- Yeah
… like even now, I'm still- See, Dave, I've

939
00:42:08,756 --> 00:42:10,076
been hanging around you a lot of the time.

940
00:42:10,086 --> 00:42:12,776
Now he's the young people, But,
uh- Yeah … just super impressive.

941
00:42:12,906 --> 00:42:13,756
Great to have him on.

942
00:42:13,786 --> 00:42:14,956
He, you know, loves the show.

943
00:42:14,976 --> 00:42:15,756
We love him.

944
00:42:15,996 --> 00:42:18,806
Can't wait to have him back on
to talk more about what he's been

945
00:42:18,806 --> 00:42:20,816
up to in that part of the world.

946
00:42:21,056 --> 00:42:23,036
Uh- Yeah … what are your,
what are your impressions, Dave?

947
00:42:23,046 --> 00:42:26,943
Like, you've- Uh … seen so many young
people, students, things like that.

948
00:42:27,183 --> 00:42:27,203
Mm-hmm.

949
00:42:27,213 --> 00:42:29,293
Uh, you know- There- … he's
heading up these shark science.

950
00:42:29,293 --> 00:42:29,323
Well,

951
00:42:29,743 --> 00:42:32,963
yeah, well, you know, as I, I think
I mentioned, you know, in East Africa

952
00:42:32,963 --> 00:42:36,403
there's been a fair amount of work
done over the years in East Africa.

953
00:42:36,413 --> 00:42:37,533
I mean, there's a lot to be done.

954
00:42:37,543 --> 00:42:37,573
Right.

955
00:42:37,583 --> 00:42:40,883
But you have, you know, we've had
people from certainly South Africa,

956
00:42:40,923 --> 00:42:45,189
Mozambique, Tanzania, Madagascar,
and some of these areas there.

957
00:42:45,356 --> 00:42:48,896
But West Africa has
really been way behind.

958
00:42:48,896 --> 00:42:51,046
There just has not been
any kind of real research.

959
00:42:51,046 --> 00:42:52,589
We've had Ana Lucia, uh, Sorozan.

960
00:42:52,599 --> 00:42:52,899
Yeah.

961
00:42:54,076 --> 00:42:54,656
Furtado.

962
00:42:54,996 --> 00:42:57,809
She's been on a couple times, and
she's been working in Angola, which

963
00:42:57,809 --> 00:43:01,549
again, I can tell you from my own
experiences in Africa, that is not

964
00:43:01,549 --> 00:43:03,259
an easy place for her to be working.

965
00:43:03,699 --> 00:43:09,059
We had Goframe on, is working in Cameroon
recently, and again, my hat's off to her.

966
00:43:09,059 --> 00:43:10,279
That's not an easy place.

967
00:43:10,589 --> 00:43:11,009
No.

968
00:43:11,279 --> 00:43:14,226
And now we have Issah and we have
a few more people coming up working

969
00:43:14,226 --> 00:43:15,566
in different parts of Africa.

970
00:43:15,566 --> 00:43:17,986
These are not easy places to get around.

971
00:43:17,986 --> 00:43:18,356
Right.

972
00:43:18,516 --> 00:43:19,316
Yeah, it's interesting.

973
00:43:19,316 --> 00:43:22,746
I mean, I, I guess, like, for me,
I've never been to Africa before.

974
00:43:23,046 --> 00:43:26,036
You've seen the terrain, you've
seen what it's like to go from

975
00:43:26,436 --> 00:43:29,576
fishing village to fishing village
in certain parts of these countries.

976
00:43:29,856 --> 00:43:30,636
It's not easy.

977
00:43:30,636 --> 00:43:33,356
We were just in Madagascar not long
ago, like, oh, was it last year?

978
00:43:33,406 --> 00:43:33,836
Last year?

979
00:43:33,886 --> 00:43:34,606
yeah, last year.

980
00:43:34,606 --> 00:43:34,721
Yeah.

981
00:43:34,721 --> 00:43:35,356
Yeah, last year.

982
00:43:35,646 --> 00:43:36,766
So not long ago.

983
00:43:36,766 --> 00:43:38,576
and you even said yourself,
like, it was, it…

984
00:43:38,576 --> 00:43:40,376
Certain places were hard to reach.

985
00:43:40,576 --> 00:43:41,836
It's always interesting to me.

986
00:43:41,836 --> 00:43:45,866
I mean, I think you have to be there
to really get the challenges and

987
00:43:45,866 --> 00:43:49,073
really understand what people are
going through and why sharks aren't

988
00:43:49,093 --> 00:43:51,943
really being studied, but they're
being caught on a regular basis.

989
00:43:51,953 --> 00:43:51,973
Mm-hmm.

990
00:43:51,973 --> 00:43:54,663
As Issah was saying, like,
it's a sustenance thing.

991
00:43:54,763 --> 00:43:55,533
They need to eat.

992
00:43:55,553 --> 00:43:59,073
And so it becomes a complex issue
when you're talking about not only

993
00:43:59,073 --> 00:44:00,943
science, but conservation of sharks.

994
00:44:01,003 --> 00:44:03,863
You know, we obviously we wanna
protect these sharks, but people

995
00:44:03,863 --> 00:44:06,493
need to eat, and they're gonna eat
what they need to eat, you know- Yeah

996
00:44:06,493 --> 00:44:06,933
what they can.

997
00:44:06,933 --> 00:44:09,783
So it must be a difficult thing to work
with them and just be like, "Hey, yeah,

998
00:44:09,783 --> 00:44:13,003
I understand where you're coming from.
Let's see if we can catch something else."

999
00:44:13,003 --> 00:44:14,183
And, and sharks, like, how does that work?

1000
00:44:14,203 --> 00:44:16,996
that's… And that's the thing I've
talked about in other episodes, but

1001
00:44:16,996 --> 00:44:18,516
this one really hits home, is that

1002
00:44:18,516 --> 00:44:22,259
If you're there and you understand the
situation there with people, but you

1003
00:44:22,259 --> 00:44:27,139
get people coming in from overseas in
Western countries that don't really

1004
00:44:27,139 --> 00:44:30,773
understand it they're just focused on,
say, a conservation aspect without really

1005
00:44:30,773 --> 00:44:33,233
fully understanding, like these people
don't catch stuff, they're not gonna eat.

1006
00:44:33,793 --> 00:44:34,073
Yeah.

1007
00:44:34,073 --> 00:44:38,103
And so you can't just go in there
and especially myself going there, I

1008
00:44:38,103 --> 00:44:41,693
never, I just provide information and
tools for them to use, and I think

1009
00:44:41,703 --> 00:44:44,383
that's the best- Yeah … that's the
best approach you should be doing.

1010
00:44:44,693 --> 00:44:44,893
Yep.

1011
00:44:44,923 --> 00:44:49,523
And then someone like Issah who's right
there on the ground, he's Ghanan, so

1012
00:44:49,523 --> 00:44:51,163
he's gonna have the best feel for stuff.

1013
00:44:51,163 --> 00:44:54,659
He's gonna understand the situation
and hopefully he can, and I expect he

1014
00:44:54,659 --> 00:44:58,589
will, make some inroads with, uh, you
know, on how best they could manage

1015
00:44:58,589 --> 00:45:00,489
and conserve their shark and ray fauna.

1016
00:45:00,809 --> 00:45:01,279
Yeah.

1017
00:45:01,399 --> 00:45:02,179
No, absolutely.

1018
00:45:02,179 --> 00:45:02,299
Yeah.

1019
00:45:02,299 --> 00:45:02,319
You

1020
00:45:02,419 --> 00:45:02,679
know?

1021
00:45:02,769 --> 00:45:03,109
Um-

1022
00:45:03,119 --> 00:45:04,139
Phenomenal episode.

1023
00:45:04,139 --> 00:45:04,449
Phenomenal interview.

1024
00:45:04,459 --> 00:45:04,539
Yep.

1025
00:45:04,709 --> 00:45:08,929
You know, definitely have him back on
the podcast- Yeah … at some point, to

1026
00:45:08,929 --> 00:45:11,029
figure out what he's up to after this one.

1027
00:45:11,259 --> 00:45:11,979
But it's so great.

1028
00:45:11,979 --> 00:45:14,449
We'll, uh, put a link to his
socials in the show notes.

1029
00:45:14,659 --> 00:45:16,579
And Dave, if people wanna get
ahold of you, how would they do so?

1030
00:45:16,619 --> 00:45:19,300
The best two ways is
Instagram, lostsharkguy.

1031
00:45:19,300 --> 00:45:19,320
Yeah.

1032
00:45:19,370 --> 00:45:23,700
And then also on, uh, YouTube,
lostsharkguy, and please go and

1033
00:45:23,700 --> 00:45:25,280
subscribe or like and follow.

1034
00:45:25,630 --> 00:45:28,400
And on the YouTube, follow the
series that Andrew and I and

1035
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:29,930
Denise Sotomayor are producing.

1036
00:45:29,940 --> 00:45:29,970
Yes.

1037
00:45:30,250 --> 00:45:33,660
Searching for Lost Sharks: Extinct or
Alive, and appreciate it if you watch it

1038
00:45:33,660 --> 00:45:36,000
and subscribe, and it definitely helps us.

1039
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:36,780
So thank you

1040
00:45:36,780 --> 00:45:36,850
very much.

1041
00:45:36,850 --> 00:45:37,670
Yeah, absolutely.

1042
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:38,070
Absolutely.

1043
00:45:38,090 --> 00:45:40,080
Plus, you get to see some
pretty cool things that we have.

1044
00:45:40,140 --> 00:45:41,350
Denise took some great footage.

1045
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:41,390
Yep.

1046
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:42,730
Uh, so it's a lot, it's a lot of fun.

1047
00:45:42,930 --> 00:45:45,220
And of course, if you wanna subscribe,
if you're watching this on YouTube or

1048
00:45:45,220 --> 00:45:47,990
even if you're not, subscribe to the
podcast on your favorite podcast app.

1049
00:45:48,510 --> 00:45:49,580
Subscribe to the YouTube channel.

1050
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,594
And of course, you can follow us
on Instagram at beyondjawspod.

1051
00:45:53,794 --> 00:45:57,704
We wanna thank you for joining us on
this episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast

1052
00:45:57,704 --> 00:45:58,934
from Dave and I. Have a great night.

1053
00:45:59,104 --> 00:46:01,074
We'll talk to you next time,
and happy conservation.