Walking Sharks Explained: A PhD Candidate's Path to a New Species

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Do you like walking sharks?

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Cause that's what we're

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going to be talking about

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in today's episode of

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the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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We have PhD candidate Jess Blakeway,

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who is on the podcast today to talk about

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these sharks that can walk.

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This is a fascinating

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species that has been the topic

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of choice for a lot of

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different Shark Week shows

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and I think National

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Geographic shows and Shark Fest

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and all these kinds of things.

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And they're always

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interesting because look,

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this is a walking shark

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and it's a small shark

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and we're learning a lot about them.

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And so much so that

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Jess always has this knack

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or seems to have this

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knack of finding new ones

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and where they not normally found.

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So we're going to be talking

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about that on today's episode.

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So let's get started with the show.

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Hey everybody, welcome back

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to another exciting episode

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of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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I'm your co-host Andrew

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Lewin here with my co-host,

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Dr. David Ebert.

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Dave, are you excited

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about walking sharks?

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Is this something that

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really gets you going?

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Oh yeah, these are really cool.

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I've never actually seen

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them in the wild like this.

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I'm super excited to

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hear about this story here.

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And yeah, and the other,

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well, they're really cool,

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pretty little sharks.

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They walk, I mean, right there, they're

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kind of really cool.

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Yeah, that's cool too.

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But the fact they have

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such narrow distributions

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in that whole Northern territory and

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Papua New Guinea area,

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we'll find out today,

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like 10 species there.

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And Jess described,

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discovered one of them.

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And it sounded like every

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time they bring her in the field,

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she's finding something new out there.

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So if you listen to the episode,

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you'll find out why we're talking about.

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And I also thought it was

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pretty cool that we had,

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we had actually, we'll mention here,

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we actually previously

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invited Christine Dudgeon,

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who was her professor onto the show.

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And coincidentally,

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after we'd invited her,

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we saw this new species she

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named after her professor.

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And we thought, well, we

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got to have her come on.

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Got to have her on.

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So, absolutely.

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The fascinating

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discussion is really cool.

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As you're the young PhD student,

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who's just finishing up now

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and she has a great story.

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And we're definitely

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going to have her back on

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to talk more about it.

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Yeah, to get the full, full story.

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This is more of a

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bonus episode to introduce

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the walking sharks.

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And we haven't really had

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them on the podcast before.

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And this is going to be a

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lot of fun talking about

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a lot of places in Papua New Guinea.

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I highly suggest if you're

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watching this on YouTube,

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you open up a Google Maps tab and then

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start looking around

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to get your familiarize yourself with it,

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because there's a lot of

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names that get thrown out,

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which I think it was a lot of fun.

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I was actually looking at it while she

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was talking about it,

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to see if I can find where we were.

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But it's really cool.

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And we also find out, Dave,

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what's the real common name?

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Is it a zebra fish or is

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it a zebra leopard shark?

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Zebra or leopard shark?

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That's the ongoing question.

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That's the ongoing question.

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And we are going to discuss that.

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Yeah, we're going to

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discuss that in this episode.

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So why don't we just start?

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Here's the interview with

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Jess Blakeway talking about

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zebra slash leopard

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sharks and walking sharks.

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Enjoy and we'll talk to you after.

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Hey Jess, welcome to

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the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about zebra?

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No leopard sharks, I

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think is what we call them.

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Are you ready to talk

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about these wonderful animals?

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I sure am.

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All right.

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Well, welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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And today we have a terrific

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first time guest on our show.

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We have Jessica Anne Blakeway, who's a

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PhD candidate at the University of the

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Sunshine Coast in Queensland, Australia.

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Her research focuses on the distribution,

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ecology and biology of walking sharks,

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hemicillium in Papua New Guinea,

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with the primary focus on the species

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found in the Malini Bay Province.

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I probably can't ask that wrong, but

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we'll she'll correct me later.

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And she leads a multi-year research

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project to assess the

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distribution of limits of walking

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shark species whilst collecting

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ecological and biological best flying

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data to address critical knowledge gaps.

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And if you don't know, we'll cover today

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this Papua New Guinea

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has an amazing array of

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these walking sharks that are found

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nowhere else in the world.

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So we'll definitely get into that.

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Her project, a collaborative effort with

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local communities, NGOs and

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international researchers.

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Her research integrates genetic analysis

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to better understand species boundaries

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and within species population structures.

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Working alongside the conflicts, conflict

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islands conservation initiative,

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she also investigates reproductive

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patterns and spatial use to inform long

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term conservation strategies.

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Just recently described the new species

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of walking shark, hemicillium dudgeoni.

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And dudgeoni sounds familiar to you.

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It's a species she named after her one of

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her advisors, Dr. Christine Dudgeon, who

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not coincidentally is going to be our

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next guest on the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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But we haven't told anybody yet.

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So she doesn't know.

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And just as research directly informs

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conservation planning and policy and

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includes contributions to the important

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shark and ray area program.

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And also she contributed to

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IUCN Red List assessments.

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She has extensive experience in marine

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conservation, field based research,

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project management and

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scientific communication.

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She has led remote field expeditions and

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logistically complex regions and

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regularly presents research findings to

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stakeholders and government agencies.

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She doesn't say she's currently doing her

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PhD at the University of the Sunshine

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Coast, but she did a BSC with honors at

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Deakin University and her

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BSC at Murdoch University.

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And with that, Jess, welcome to the show.

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Thank you.

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Yeah.

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So it's a long list of

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accomplishments at such a young age.

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That's amazing.

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I know.

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It's amazing.

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So how did you get interested in sharks

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and the marine environment?

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Yeah, so I actually grew up in Tasmania,

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where I currently live.

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Tasmania.

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But yeah, well, sort of born

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in WA, but grown up in Tassie.

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So OK, I grew up going

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out on the boat with my dad.

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And he used to work with the dive shop

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down in Eagle Hook Neck.

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So I've been around diving in

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the ocean since a young age.

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And that's kind of

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where it all stemmed from.

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There was a little moment there where I

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almost thought I might go

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into law, but I'm glad I didn't.

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But yeah, so just basically growing up in

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a beautiful part of the world and being

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inspired to be in the water all the time,

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learning how to dive at about 15 and then

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got hooked since then.

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Yeah, what's the difference?

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Like, you know, when we a lot of people I

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live in Canada, you

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know, Dave lives in the US.

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So here in the western part of the world,

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when we think of of, you know, Australia

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and diving, we think of

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the Great Barrier Reef.

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You know, I know

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Tasmania is a lot different.

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What like to dive in Tasmania?

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What is what could one

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expect other than Neil the seal?

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Apparently, who likes to.

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Neil the seal has been around lately.

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He actually lives right near my

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mother-in-law when he's in

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Tassie, which is right on.

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That's hilarious.

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Yeah, no, diving in Tassie

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is definitely not coral reefs.

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We're quite temperate, pretty cold.

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Last time I went diving, it

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was actually 13 degrees Celsius.

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Wow. Yeah, that's chilly.

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But yeah, it's mostly

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kelps and that sort of thing.

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But yeah, we've got in terms of the last

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my brains, we get some bigger bull rays.

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We get, you know, the.

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Oh my God, my brain just stopped working.

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There's just so many to think about.

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You know, we yeah, we get poor Jackson

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sharks and all of those

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more temperate species,

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which is really nice.

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You know, we do get some

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of the bigger by few months.

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But so far, luckily, I

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haven't seen them on my diving.

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I think that would be a

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little bit nerve wracking diving.

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But we get like lots of crayfish and

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abalone and all of

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that down here as well.

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I think that's my favorite scientific

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description is the bitey ones.

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The bitey ones.

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Yeah.

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So so you went there.

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So you went here in Tasmania, obviously,

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and you went, which

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has a good program, the

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University of Tasmania and a lot of top

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researchers there,

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well, white and Peter Lass,

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who's retired and John Stevens, who's

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01:08:49,541 --> 01:08:51,916
retired are down there.

284
01:08:52,583 --> 01:08:53,625
So why did you go first?

285
01:08:53,625 --> 01:08:55,500
Would you go to you went to Murdoch

286
01:08:55,500 --> 01:08:57,750
University out in WA Western Australia?

287
01:08:58,375 --> 01:08:58,458
Yeah, yeah.

288
01:08:59,208 --> 01:09:03,791
So I was called Tasmania is

289
01:09:03,791 --> 01:09:05,750
called in terms of Australia.

290
01:09:06,833 --> 01:09:09,875
So, yeah, I decided I wanted to go

291
01:09:09,875 --> 01:09:11,000
somewhere a little bit warmer.

292
01:09:11,666 --> 01:09:12,708
I have family over in

293
01:09:12,708 --> 01:09:14,041
Western Australia as well.

294
01:09:14,416 --> 01:09:16,708
And I got accepted into Murdoch.

295
01:09:17,791 --> 01:09:19,666
So I made the move over

296
01:09:19,666 --> 01:09:21,333
there, which was wonderful.

297
01:09:21,875 --> 01:09:24,000
They've got a really good program with

298
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:28,208
lots of field activities as well.

299
01:09:28,625 --> 01:09:30,000
So you're not just sitting in the

300
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:31,958
classroom, which is really great.

301
01:09:32,708 --> 01:09:34,083
And then you went to Deakin.

302
01:09:34,583 --> 01:09:35,291
Where's Deakin?

303
01:09:36,291 --> 01:09:37,500
Deakin is in Victoria.

304
01:09:38,250 --> 01:09:40,208
So I came back to the coldest side again.

305
01:09:40,916 --> 01:09:41,125
OK.

306
01:09:42,250 --> 01:09:45,500
And I actually did my honours on

307
01:09:45,500 --> 01:09:46,958
Galapagos sea lions

308
01:09:46,958 --> 01:09:51,750
using the telemetry data.

309
01:09:51,791 --> 01:09:53,666
So I didn't get to go.

310
01:09:54,291 --> 01:09:55,250
But OK.

311
01:09:55,458 --> 01:09:55,666
Yeah.

312
01:09:55,708 --> 01:09:56,916
So so at this point, you're just doing

313
01:09:56,916 --> 01:09:57,791
where you're just interested

314
01:09:57,791 --> 01:09:59,375
in marine science in general.

315
01:10:00,416 --> 01:10:01,791
Pretty much not shark

316
01:10:01,791 --> 01:10:03,416
specifically, just marine science.

317
01:10:03,875 --> 01:10:05,875
Yeah. I mean, I've always had a soft spot

318
01:10:05,875 --> 01:10:09,041
for sharks, but I wasn't really sure

319
01:10:09,041 --> 01:10:10,166
where I wanted to go.

320
01:10:10,416 --> 01:10:12,416
So I just was like, oh,

321
01:10:12,666 --> 01:10:13,625
this sounds interesting.

322
01:10:13,875 --> 01:10:16,000
May as well jump on and try this.

323
01:10:16,541 --> 01:10:17,666
Yeah. So what?

324
01:10:17,666 --> 01:10:19,166
So so you got the work

325
01:10:19,166 --> 01:10:20,166
did for your honours.

326
01:10:20,166 --> 01:10:20,750
You worked on.

327
01:10:21,083 --> 01:10:23,250
We say was it

328
01:10:23,250 --> 01:10:24,500
Galapagos sea lions, you said.

329
01:10:24,791 --> 01:10:25,708
Yeah, correct.

330
01:10:26,083 --> 01:10:27,000
OK. OK.

331
01:10:27,083 --> 01:10:28,500
Which Australia is a little bit far from

332
01:10:28,500 --> 01:10:31,000
Galapagos sea lions, but you can have

333
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:32,041
that for another conversation.

334
01:10:33,041 --> 01:10:33,500
Exactly.

335
01:10:34,666 --> 01:10:36,083
So so OK.

336
01:10:36,083 --> 01:10:37,208
So how did you go from the

337
01:10:37,208 --> 01:10:39,291
sea lions to walking sharks?

338
01:10:40,291 --> 01:10:42,583
Yeah. So when I actually finished my

339
01:10:42,583 --> 01:10:46,291
undergrad over in WA, I was looking for

340
01:10:46,291 --> 01:10:49,583
something to do to try figure out what I

341
01:10:49,583 --> 01:10:50,666
actually wanted to do.

342
01:10:50,833 --> 01:10:54,291
I feel like doing volunteering is so

343
01:10:54,291 --> 01:10:56,541
important in trying to figure out what

344
01:10:56,541 --> 01:10:58,458
you actually want to do when you graduate

345
01:10:58,458 --> 01:11:00,708
in terms of what you like

346
01:11:00,708 --> 01:11:01,625
and what you don't like.

347
01:11:01,958 --> 01:11:04,000
So I was doing a lot of that.

348
01:11:05,125 --> 01:11:07,958
And I saw an opportunity to go over to

349
01:11:07,958 --> 01:11:10,541
Papua New Guinea and do some volunteering

350
01:11:10,541 --> 01:11:12,458
over there, which was

351
01:11:12,458 --> 01:11:14,125
actually with sea turtles.

352
01:11:15,208 --> 01:11:17,125
OK, turtles. OK. Yeah.

353
01:11:17,416 --> 01:11:21,125
Um, but while I was over there, I got to

354
01:11:21,125 --> 01:11:22,958
do some diving as well.

355
01:11:24,916 --> 01:11:27,958
And they actually had one of the walking

356
01:11:27,958 --> 01:11:30,375
shark species, which I

357
01:11:30,375 --> 01:11:32,875
now study over there.

358
01:11:33,083 --> 01:11:35,500
And I was like, I want

359
01:11:35,500 --> 01:11:36,583
to know more about this.

360
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:38,583
And there wasn't any information.

361
01:11:39,166 --> 01:11:42,708
So, yeah, then I started hassling Chris.

362
01:11:43,208 --> 01:11:46,000
I emailed her because I saw she was on

363
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:48,583
the description of this species and I

364
01:11:48,583 --> 01:11:51,625
jumped into emails and I was

365
01:11:51,625 --> 01:11:53,708
like, hey, my name is Jess.

366
01:11:53,791 --> 01:11:55,416
I've just been diving in Papua New Guinea

367
01:11:55,416 --> 01:11:57,250
at this spot that's

368
01:11:57,250 --> 01:11:59,208
outside the described range.

369
01:12:00,041 --> 01:12:01,333
This could be a cool project

370
01:12:01,333 --> 01:12:04,041
that maybe you might want to.

371
01:12:04,041 --> 01:12:06,000
I like that. Yeah. Yeah.

372
01:12:06,541 --> 01:12:08,916
So that's that's how

373
01:12:08,916 --> 01:12:09,666
I got into the sharks.

374
01:12:09,916 --> 01:12:13,958
So wait, so sorry, take that back again.

375
01:12:13,958 --> 01:12:15,875
So you went diving in Papua New Guinea.

376
01:12:15,875 --> 01:12:18,125
You saw these sharks. Yeah.

377
01:12:18,375 --> 01:12:19,958
And it's kind of cool to

378
01:12:19,958 --> 01:12:21,000
see these sharks, obviously.

379
01:12:21,541 --> 01:12:22,541
You knew a little bit about them.

380
01:12:22,541 --> 01:12:23,375
You did some research.

381
01:12:23,375 --> 01:12:23,916
They say this is

382
01:12:23,916 --> 01:12:25,041
outside their normal range.

383
01:12:25,458 --> 01:12:27,000
I mean, email the person who's attached

384
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:28,541
with describing the species and say, hey,

385
01:12:28,541 --> 01:12:30,166
by the way, I found

386
01:12:30,166 --> 01:12:31,125
this outside the range.

387
01:12:31,125 --> 01:12:32,416
You might be interested. This would be a

388
01:12:32,416 --> 01:12:33,458
cool project to study.

389
01:12:33,500 --> 01:12:35,083
That's that's what you did, essentially.

390
01:12:35,750 --> 01:12:36,875
Pretty much. Yeah.

391
01:12:36,875 --> 01:12:37,625
That's fabulous.

392
01:12:38,125 --> 01:12:40,833
Well, you know, you

393
01:12:40,833 --> 01:12:42,000
have to find your gap.

394
01:12:42,916 --> 01:12:44,333
And it was a big research gap.

395
01:12:44,750 --> 01:12:46,083
So that's a huge research gap.

396
01:12:46,083 --> 01:12:47,208
And so what was her response?

397
01:12:48,958 --> 01:12:50,375
So at the time, Chris,

398
01:12:50,666 --> 01:12:52,166
I think she was based at

399
01:12:52,958 --> 01:12:53,708
University of

400
01:12:53,708 --> 01:12:56,125
Queensland, mostly at that stage.

401
01:12:58,208 --> 01:13:00,583
But she didn't have the capacity to take

402
01:13:00,583 --> 01:13:03,833
on a PhD student at that point.

403
01:13:04,541 --> 01:13:07,666
So I ended up volunteering with her and

404
01:13:07,666 --> 01:13:13,416
doing some photo ID work with the leopard

405
01:13:13,416 --> 01:13:15,166
sharks or zebra sharks.

406
01:13:15,500 --> 01:13:16,041
Oh, we'll get this.

407
01:13:16,375 --> 01:13:19,166
Can I just can I just probably just so

408
01:13:19,166 --> 01:13:20,708
people were talking about Dr.

409
01:13:20,958 --> 01:13:24,041
Christine Dudgeon, who's a professor at

410
01:13:24,041 --> 01:13:25,125
the university up there.

411
01:13:26,750 --> 01:13:28,541
I actually I think

412
01:13:28,541 --> 01:13:30,041
she's a senior researcher.

413
01:13:30,583 --> 01:13:32,125
I don't think she's quite a professor.

414
01:13:32,166 --> 01:13:33,625
Anyway, she's up there.

415
01:13:34,125 --> 01:13:35,166
And just a sneak peek.

416
01:13:35,583 --> 01:13:36,791
Christine's going to be coming up on the

417
01:13:36,791 --> 01:13:38,500
next episode after this one.

418
01:13:38,833 --> 01:13:40,291
So keep that to ourselves.

419
01:13:40,500 --> 01:13:43,291
And so but just want to just make sure

420
01:13:43,291 --> 01:13:44,000
everybody knew we

421
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:44,958
knew we're talking about.

422
01:13:44,958 --> 01:13:46,208
So, yeah, go ahead.

423
01:13:46,791 --> 01:13:47,083
Go ahead.

424
01:13:47,708 --> 01:13:51,083
Yeah. So Kristen quite have the capacity

425
01:13:51,083 --> 01:13:54,125
in her position to take on a PhD student.

426
01:13:55,250 --> 01:14:00,083
So while we were waiting for her to have

427
01:14:00,083 --> 01:14:01,791
the availability and time

428
01:14:01,875 --> 01:14:04,708
to briefly take me on, I did some work

429
01:14:04,708 --> 01:14:06,208
with her on the leopard

430
01:14:06,208 --> 01:14:09,208
shark population in Australia,

431
01:14:09,625 --> 01:14:12,416
working on their photo ID database and

432
01:14:12,416 --> 01:14:14,291
just getting that all uploaded.

433
01:14:14,583 --> 01:14:15,833
So it was a lot of old

434
01:14:15,833 --> 01:14:17,791
photos that needed uploading.

435
01:14:19,500 --> 01:14:22,000
And then same thing with the Thailand

436
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:24,750
population and uploaded a bunch of that

437
01:14:24,750 --> 01:14:25,916
information for her.

438
01:14:27,041 --> 01:14:29,541
And then somewhere in

439
01:14:29,541 --> 01:14:31,083
this time, COVID happened.

440
01:14:32,791 --> 01:14:36,875
I moved to Queensland and there was a bit

441
01:14:36,875 --> 01:14:39,750
of a gap, a few years of waiting for this

442
01:14:39,750 --> 01:14:41,625
PhD position to be open.

443
01:14:43,833 --> 01:14:45,791
But yeah, in 2023, finally,

444
01:14:46,083 --> 01:14:48,291
we locked in and I started.

445
01:14:49,166 --> 01:14:50,791
What were you doing during those years?

446
01:14:50,791 --> 01:14:52,083
I mean, it's got to be a tough thing.

447
01:14:52,083 --> 01:14:53,208
You know what you want to start.

448
01:14:53,750 --> 01:14:55,208
You know, you know, the people are ready.

449
01:14:55,500 --> 01:14:56,291
There's I assume there's

450
01:14:56,291 --> 01:14:57,500
funding for that at that point.

451
01:14:58,333 --> 01:15:00,916
You know, I wasn't I'm impatient when it

452
01:15:00,916 --> 01:15:01,833
comes to these kind of things.

453
01:15:01,833 --> 01:15:03,291
So I just want to know, especially with

454
01:15:03,291 --> 01:15:04,541
COVID, not knowing when it was going to

455
01:15:04,541 --> 01:15:05,541
end, knowing the severity,

456
01:15:05,541 --> 01:15:07,333
especially in Australia, where they would

457
01:15:07,333 --> 01:15:08,291
close down on a regular

458
01:15:08,291 --> 01:15:09,541
basis, just like here in Canada.

459
01:15:10,291 --> 01:15:12,916
What was that feeling like for you to

460
01:15:12,916 --> 01:15:14,083
like kind of put things on

461
01:15:14,083 --> 01:15:16,375
pause because of this pandemic?

462
01:15:17,583 --> 01:15:19,791
Yeah, the pandemic was pretty stressful.

463
01:15:20,958 --> 01:15:22,000
I was actually living in

464
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:23,041
Melbourne when it happened.

465
01:15:23,458 --> 01:15:25,500
So we had the longest

466
01:15:25,500 --> 01:15:28,291
lockdown in the world, basically.

467
01:15:28,541 --> 01:15:30,791
So that was not fun.

468
01:15:31,875 --> 01:15:36,000
I like many people doing studies was

469
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:39,583
working in hospitality to supplement my

470
01:15:39,583 --> 01:15:41,791
income and make sure I could pay the

471
01:15:41,791 --> 01:15:43,416
bills at the same

472
01:15:43,416 --> 01:15:45,250
time as doing my honours.

473
01:15:48,083 --> 01:15:50,625
So basically, in that time, I just ended

474
01:15:50,625 --> 01:15:51,666
up working in hospitality.

475
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:54,041
I didn't. Yeah, didn't get to

476
01:15:54,041 --> 01:15:56,083
do too much fun, fun research.

477
01:15:57,500 --> 01:16:01,041
Was there ever a point where you're like,

478
01:16:01,625 --> 01:16:04,708
this may not happen because because the

479
01:16:04,708 --> 01:16:05,500
pandemic just because

480
01:16:05,500 --> 01:16:06,541
of things moving around?

481
01:16:07,875 --> 01:16:12,291
I mean, I'm I'm a pretty relaxed person.

482
01:16:12,541 --> 01:16:14,208
Like, I can't get stressed.

483
01:16:14,708 --> 01:16:16,666
But I feel like if it's

484
01:16:16,666 --> 01:16:18,583
going to happen, it will happen.

485
01:16:19,500 --> 01:16:22,541
And, you know, you've got to do other

486
01:16:22,541 --> 01:16:24,166
things in the meantime, then you've got

487
01:16:24,166 --> 01:16:25,041
to do other things in the meantime.

488
01:16:25,083 --> 01:16:28,250
But you, you know, you just have to keep

489
01:16:28,250 --> 01:16:29,583
at it and for sure

490
01:16:29,583 --> 01:16:31,041
that it comes to fruition.

491
01:16:31,041 --> 01:16:33,416
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Good for

492
01:16:33,416 --> 01:16:34,333
you. That's awesome.

493
01:16:34,333 --> 01:16:37,541
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, stressful.

494
01:16:37,875 --> 01:16:41,541
Yeah. So they say you're

495
01:16:41,541 --> 01:16:44,708
working on doing this leopard shark.

496
01:16:47,041 --> 01:16:50,916
I.D. Now, can I ask you, why do they call

497
01:16:50,916 --> 01:16:52,625
him like leopard

498
01:16:52,625 --> 01:16:53,375
sharks versus zebra sharks?

499
01:16:53,416 --> 01:16:58,583
Yeah. So they when they're born.

500
01:16:59,250 --> 01:17:02,041
So leopard sharks, they lay eggs.

501
01:17:02,500 --> 01:17:04,791
And when they hatch from their eggs,

502
01:17:04,791 --> 01:17:08,708
they're striped, which is why you guys

503
01:17:08,708 --> 01:17:10,416
call them zebra sharks.

504
01:17:10,875 --> 01:17:11,833
They're striped like a zebra.

505
01:17:13,083 --> 01:17:15,375
And then as they grow, they actually

506
01:17:15,375 --> 01:17:18,041
their color patterns kind of morph into

507
01:17:18,041 --> 01:17:19,833
more leopard like spots.

508
01:17:20,875 --> 01:17:22,166
So that's why we call

509
01:17:22,166 --> 01:17:23,000
them leopard sharks.

510
01:17:24,125 --> 01:17:25,791
And of course, the scientific name is

511
01:17:25,791 --> 01:17:27,166
Stegostoma tigrum,

512
01:17:27,166 --> 01:17:28,750
which is the tiger shark.

513
01:17:29,500 --> 01:17:31,583
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.

514
01:17:31,916 --> 01:17:33,541
Yeah. It's a very confused shark.

515
01:17:35,958 --> 01:17:36,583
It is.

516
01:17:36,750 --> 01:17:38,541
They are pretty. They are pretty sharks.

517
01:17:38,541 --> 01:17:39,875
I'll say that. But they're but they're

518
01:17:39,875 --> 01:17:41,750
just kind of because we have we have the

519
01:17:41,750 --> 01:17:43,625
leopard shark here in California, the

520
01:17:43,625 --> 01:17:46,000
true leopard shark, in my opinion, which

521
01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:47,416
is a completely different family.

522
01:17:47,416 --> 01:17:48,125
It's in the hound shark

523
01:17:48,125 --> 01:17:49,875
groups. Tricus, semi-fasciana.

524
01:17:50,458 --> 01:17:54,208
And yeah, so I was always it's always a

525
01:17:54,208 --> 01:17:55,958
back and forth when I have to hear when I

526
01:17:55,958 --> 01:17:56,791
hear tiger shark,

527
01:17:56,791 --> 01:17:57,958
leopard shark, whatever.

528
01:17:58,583 --> 01:18:00,041
Yeah, it always gets

529
01:18:00,041 --> 01:18:01,583
confusing with a common name.

530
01:18:01,958 --> 01:18:03,333
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

531
01:18:03,666 --> 01:18:05,208
Another another little bit of trivia, but

532
01:18:05,208 --> 01:18:07,208
the the juveniles, as you mentioned, are

533
01:18:07,208 --> 01:18:08,250
striped when they're born.

534
01:18:09,541 --> 01:18:10,041
They were actually

535
01:18:10,041 --> 01:18:11,875
described as a different species.

536
01:18:11,875 --> 01:18:12,750
I can see that.

537
01:18:12,750 --> 01:18:14,666
They are so strikingly different. They're

538
01:18:14,666 --> 01:18:15,500
actually one had been

539
01:18:15,500 --> 01:18:16,958
described as separate species.

540
01:18:17,250 --> 01:18:18,916
No, but it was only when people actually

541
01:18:18,916 --> 01:18:20,875
I think had them in captivity and saw

542
01:18:20,875 --> 01:18:22,000
them actually growing up.

543
01:18:22,458 --> 01:18:24,250
They is where they figured out like, hey,

544
01:18:24,250 --> 01:18:24,833
these things are

545
01:18:24,833 --> 01:18:25,750
actually the same species.

546
01:18:26,583 --> 01:18:28,708
So yeah, it's a little bit of trivia for

547
01:18:28,708 --> 01:18:30,500
people out there. Yeah. And

548
01:18:30,500 --> 01:18:31,791
interestingly, the walking

549
01:18:31,791 --> 01:18:32,916
sharks do the same thing.

550
01:18:33,125 --> 01:18:35,166
They're striped when they hatch and then

551
01:18:35,166 --> 01:18:37,375
they grow into their color patterns. What

552
01:18:37,375 --> 01:18:39,125
can you tell people out there?

553
01:18:39,333 --> 01:18:41,333
The the the I mean, I think it's really

554
01:18:41,333 --> 01:18:43,166
fascinating the whole walking shark thing

555
01:18:43,166 --> 01:18:44,083
in Papua New Guinea.

556
01:18:44,916 --> 01:18:46,083
Because you have all these different

557
01:18:46,083 --> 01:18:48,333
species are very limited distribution.

558
01:18:48,333 --> 01:18:49,708
Can you just kind of for everybody

559
01:18:49,708 --> 01:18:52,208
listening here, give a quick overview on

560
01:18:52,833 --> 01:18:54,333
what exactly when you talk

561
01:18:54,333 --> 01:18:55,416
about these? What do you yeah?

562
01:18:56,291 --> 01:18:56,666
so

563
01:18:57,541 --> 01:19:01,416
normally when I do a talk to students or

564
01:19:02,125 --> 01:19:05,250
Whoever I kind of start off with, you

565
01:19:05,250 --> 01:19:07,041
know, you think of walking sharks. You

566
01:19:07,041 --> 01:19:09,250
think of Bruce from Finding Nemo.

567
01:19:09,250 --> 01:19:11,541
His grown legs who smoked on land. It's

568
01:19:11,541 --> 01:19:14,041
like, oh no, like shark NATO kind of

569
01:19:14,500 --> 01:19:18,250
It's stressful. But we're not talking

570
01:19:18,250 --> 01:19:19,416
about that. We're talking

571
01:19:19,416 --> 01:19:20,916
about like these little sharks

572
01:19:21,333 --> 01:19:23,375
that kind of come up onto the coral reefs

573
01:19:23,375 --> 01:19:24,791
and they use their fins to walk.

574
01:19:26,083 --> 01:19:29,958
And the most famous of them is the

575
01:19:29,958 --> 01:19:31,958
epaulette shark from

576
01:19:31,958 --> 01:19:32,916
the Great Barrier Reef.

577
01:19:33,125 --> 01:19:37,875
And I feel like most people who have

578
01:19:37,875 --> 01:19:39,208
watched any David Attenborough.

579
01:19:39,791 --> 01:19:43,250
Yeah, has probably seen the clip of this

580
01:19:43,250 --> 01:19:44,333
little shark coming up

581
01:19:44,333 --> 01:19:46,000
and walking at low tide.

582
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:49,291
And that's the epaulette shark from

583
01:19:49,291 --> 01:19:53,083
Australia. And in addition to that one,

584
01:19:53,083 --> 01:19:55,208
we actually have nine other species.

585
01:19:56,583 --> 01:19:58,750
Which most people. Wow, I did not know

586
01:19:58,750 --> 01:20:00,541
there were nine other species. Wow.

587
01:20:01,291 --> 01:20:04,000
Okay, so a total of 10 species in this

588
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:05,291
genus, which is really

589
01:20:05,291 --> 01:20:07,291
exciting. And they're only found

590
01:20:07,958 --> 01:20:10,791
in northern Australia and around the

591
01:20:10,791 --> 01:20:12,875
island of New Guinea. So that's Papua New

592
01:20:12,875 --> 01:20:14,541
Guinea and West Papua

593
01:20:15,250 --> 01:20:18,916
in Indonesia and then also

594
01:20:18,916 --> 01:20:21,708
Halmahera and the Aru islands.

595
01:20:23,791 --> 01:20:26,250
And each of these species have like

596
01:20:26,250 --> 01:20:29,083
distinctive color patterns that you can

597
01:20:29,083 --> 01:20:30,166
use to tell them apart.

598
01:20:31,083 --> 01:20:34,500
And they've all got quite distinctive

599
01:20:34,500 --> 01:20:36,958
distributions. And yeah,

600
01:20:37,125 --> 01:20:39,083
in Papua New Guinea, we have

601
01:20:40,375 --> 01:20:45,000
officially as of a month ago, four

602
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:49,208
species in Papua New Guinea with three of

603
01:20:49,208 --> 01:20:51,125
those species found in

604
01:20:51,333 --> 01:20:54,000
Millon Bay, which is the very eastern tip

605
01:20:54,000 --> 01:20:55,458
of Papua New Guinea.

606
01:20:55,500 --> 01:20:58,166
And now all of these things here, and

607
01:20:58,166 --> 01:20:59,333
we'll talk about the one you just

608
01:20:59,333 --> 01:21:00,375
described in a moment, but

609
01:21:00,833 --> 01:21:03,458
all of these these these walking sharks

610
01:21:03,458 --> 01:21:04,791
have a very limited

611
01:21:04,791 --> 01:21:06,250
distribution to like just

612
01:21:07,250 --> 01:21:09,166
really like some bays and

613
01:21:09,166 --> 01:21:11,125
short stretches of coastline.

614
01:21:14,083 --> 01:21:15,208
That opens up all kinds of weird

615
01:21:15,208 --> 01:21:17,250
questions about why are they so

616
01:21:18,375 --> 01:21:20,291
so have such a side

617
01:21:20,291 --> 01:21:22,416
restricted. Yeah, yeah.

618
01:21:22,458 --> 01:21:26,166
Yeah, so there's a few different

619
01:21:26,166 --> 01:21:29,958
hypothesis hypotheses on it.

620
01:21:31,083 --> 01:21:36,375
The main thought is these animals are,

621
01:21:36,375 --> 01:21:38,583
you know, less than a meter in length. So

622
01:21:38,583 --> 01:21:39,541
they're pretty small.

623
01:21:40,500 --> 01:21:46,333
So what three feet. Yeah. And then they

624
01:21:46,333 --> 01:21:47,791
are quite site

625
01:21:47,791 --> 01:21:49,375
restricted. So they don't really

626
01:21:50,375 --> 01:21:52,041
it's all that they aren't really cross

627
01:21:52,041 --> 01:21:54,375
depths of over 200 meters.

628
01:21:56,166 --> 01:21:57,500
So they're quite restricted to

629
01:21:57,500 --> 01:22:00,250
the shallow water. And then they're also

630
01:22:00,250 --> 01:22:01,833
egg laying similar to

631
01:22:01,833 --> 01:22:03,708
the leopard shark. So they

632
01:22:03,708 --> 01:22:05,500
kind of deposit their eggs on the sea

633
01:22:05,500 --> 01:22:07,916
floor. So all of these

634
01:22:07,916 --> 01:22:09,666
factors together kind of make them

635
01:22:09,708 --> 01:22:13,750
quite restricted to one location. And

636
01:22:13,750 --> 01:22:16,291
then they're also associated with just

637
01:22:16,291 --> 01:22:18,250
coral reefs and seagrass

638
01:22:18,375 --> 01:22:21,750
beds and mangrove systems. So they're

639
01:22:21,750 --> 01:22:23,416
fairly habitat restricted as

640
01:22:23,416 --> 01:22:27,166
well. And then the thought on

641
01:22:27,791 --> 01:22:31,458
their non-overlapping distributions that

642
01:22:31,458 --> 01:22:33,291
are quite distinct is

643
01:22:33,291 --> 01:22:35,458
because of these factors,

644
01:22:36,041 --> 01:22:37,708
they're quite influenced by the deep

645
01:22:37,708 --> 01:22:41,291
water barriers. And then

646
01:22:41,291 --> 01:22:43,708
also things like really large

647
01:22:43,833 --> 01:22:47,583
freshwater outflows causing a break in

648
01:22:47,583 --> 01:22:50,750
their habitat can cause a break in the

649
01:22:50,750 --> 01:22:51,875
species distributions.

650
01:22:52,666 --> 01:22:54,958
So they're kind of like the main reasons

651
01:22:54,958 --> 01:22:56,125
why we think they have

652
01:22:56,125 --> 01:22:58,666
these quite small distributions.

653
01:22:59,000 --> 01:23:01,250
What's the most like the Australia, how

654
01:23:01,250 --> 01:23:02,916
many you just have the one species in

655
01:23:02,916 --> 01:23:03,875
Australia? Is that correct?

656
01:23:04,666 --> 01:23:07,208
No, we have to. Oh, you have to. Yeah, we

657
01:23:07,208 --> 01:23:09,916
have to. So we have the

658
01:23:09,916 --> 01:23:11,833
epaulette shark on the east coast,

659
01:23:12,125 --> 01:23:14,750
which is in the Great Barrier Reef. And

660
01:23:14,750 --> 01:23:16,541
then we also have

661
01:23:16,541 --> 01:23:20,666
hemicillium trispecular or the,

662
01:23:21,333 --> 01:23:23,333
I think the common name is the spotted.

663
01:23:24,041 --> 01:23:25,500
Okay. Walking shark.

664
01:23:26,166 --> 01:23:28,250
It's on the west coast of

665
01:23:29,083 --> 01:23:31,083
Australia. And it kind of goes from

666
01:23:31,083 --> 01:23:34,875
Darwin along down to the

667
01:23:34,875 --> 01:23:37,208
Ningaloo Reef. Okay. Okay.

668
01:23:37,791 --> 01:23:41,333
So the Northwest area. So they, but they

669
01:23:41,333 --> 01:23:42,833
don't overlap at all.

670
01:23:44,458 --> 01:23:47,458
Currently, we don't have any information

671
01:23:47,458 --> 01:23:51,041
that they overlap. Okay. Yeah. It's

672
01:23:51,041 --> 01:23:51,791
something that we want

673
01:23:51,791 --> 01:23:55,375
to look into in the future. But we've got

674
01:23:55,375 --> 01:23:58,458
to work with traditional

675
01:23:58,458 --> 01:24:00,166
owners to kind of work in that

676
01:24:00,291 --> 01:24:02,583
area, which is obviously a really amazing

677
01:24:02,583 --> 01:24:05,166
thing to be able to do. But

678
01:24:05,166 --> 01:24:07,500
you know, that's, that's down

679
01:24:07,500 --> 01:24:10,291
the line, hopefully for postdoc. Yeah,

680
01:24:10,291 --> 01:24:14,583
sure. But this is what I love. Sorry,

681
01:24:14,583 --> 01:24:15,333
David, I didn't mean to

682
01:24:15,333 --> 01:24:17,291
cut you off. This is what I love about

683
01:24:17,291 --> 01:24:19,250
these, these types of sharks

684
01:24:19,250 --> 01:24:21,041
is not a lot of it seems like

685
01:24:21,041 --> 01:24:22,250
there's not a lot known about their

686
01:24:22,250 --> 01:24:24,083
ranges, right? Just as in terms of how

687
01:24:24,083 --> 01:24:25,375
this PhD came. And I love

688
01:24:25,416 --> 01:24:27,041
how you answered is like, yes, we don't

689
01:24:27,041 --> 01:24:29,208
know yet because we could,

690
01:24:29,208 --> 01:24:30,916
they could overlap for all we

691
01:24:30,916 --> 01:24:33,875
know we have no idea. And I assume you're

692
01:24:33,875 --> 01:24:34,958
getting into pretty remote

693
01:24:34,958 --> 01:24:37,041
places in certain spots in

694
01:24:37,166 --> 01:24:40,250
Australia. And, you know, it's like you

695
01:24:40,250 --> 01:24:41,250
said, it's going to be interesting to

696
01:24:41,250 --> 01:24:42,916
build those relationships

697
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:45,250
with traditional owners and stuff. And I

698
01:24:45,250 --> 01:24:46,916
think that's really cool.

699
01:24:47,375 --> 01:24:48,500
But this is what I love about

700
01:24:48,583 --> 01:24:51,083
looking at sharks and doing this podcast,

701
01:24:51,083 --> 01:24:51,791
because every time we have

702
01:24:51,791 --> 01:24:52,500
somebody here, it's like, yeah,

703
01:24:52,541 --> 01:24:54,083
we're not gonna say that they overlap or

704
01:24:54,083 --> 01:24:55,875
that they don't overlap. It's because we

705
01:24:55,875 --> 01:24:56,875
haven't figured it out yet.

706
01:24:57,041 --> 01:25:00,833
You know, we don't know. Definitely. So

707
01:25:00,833 --> 01:25:02,958
like the work that

708
01:25:02,958 --> 01:25:04,375
we've been doing for my PhD,

709
01:25:06,500 --> 01:25:08,375
basically stemmed off the information we

710
01:25:08,375 --> 01:25:10,000
had from doing the volunteering at the

711
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:11,291
conflict islands that

712
01:25:11,625 --> 01:25:15,541
there was a shark species outside of its

713
01:25:15,541 --> 01:25:18,416
known range. So we wanted to do

714
01:25:18,416 --> 01:25:19,625
exploratory surveys to

715
01:25:19,625 --> 01:25:24,291
look into that more. And the first big

716
01:25:24,291 --> 01:25:28,250
trip we did, so I also work with Mark

717
01:25:28,250 --> 01:25:31,166
Erdmann, Dr. Mark Erdmann.

718
01:25:32,083 --> 01:25:35,541
And so, and Kathy Townsend, as well as

719
01:25:35,541 --> 01:25:37,708
one of my other supervisors. So we all

720
01:25:37,708 --> 01:25:40,500
went on this big trip on a boat

721
01:25:41,500 --> 01:25:45,375
all throughout Melon Bay in November 2023

722
01:25:45,375 --> 01:25:48,083
to kind of look at

723
01:25:48,083 --> 01:25:49,916
part of the known area,

724
01:25:50,125 --> 01:25:52,041
but also outside of the known

725
01:25:52,041 --> 01:25:55,625
distribution to kind of get a bit more

726
01:25:55,625 --> 01:25:57,000
information on what was

727
01:25:57,000 --> 01:25:59,416
happening and update those distributions

728
01:25:59,416 --> 01:26:00,666
because they do have small

729
01:26:00,666 --> 01:26:03,625
distributions. And we kind of

730
01:26:04,583 --> 01:26:06,583
left the conflict islands and there's

731
01:26:06,583 --> 01:26:09,875
this big, it's actually a

732
01:26:09,875 --> 01:26:11,000
massive shipping channel,

733
01:26:11,208 --> 01:26:13,958
but it's this big deep water barrier and

734
01:26:13,958 --> 01:26:17,125
it drops down to I think over 500 meters,

735
01:26:18,583 --> 01:26:20,250
maybe over a thousand meters in depth.

736
01:26:20,625 --> 01:26:24,125
Yeah, quite deep. And there's another

737
01:26:24,125 --> 01:26:25,250
group of islands called

738
01:26:25,500 --> 01:26:29,583
the Du Boin Islands and a lot of our

739
01:26:29,583 --> 01:26:31,250
friends who work at the

740
01:26:31,250 --> 01:26:32,291
conflict islands actually

741
01:26:32,666 --> 01:26:35,458
are from those islands as well. And we

742
01:26:35,458 --> 01:26:37,458
were doing some snorkeling at

743
01:26:37,458 --> 01:26:38,875
nighttime because that's when

744
01:26:38,875 --> 01:26:43,833
these sharks are more active. And really

745
01:26:43,833 --> 01:26:45,791
excitingly, I was in the

746
01:26:45,791 --> 01:26:47,708
water with Chris Dudgeon again,

747
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:51,875
and Chris grabs a shark because we just

748
01:26:51,875 --> 01:26:53,375
pick them up and bring

749
01:26:53,375 --> 01:26:54,500
them back to the boat because

750
01:26:54,500 --> 01:26:59,708
they're not bitey sharks. And so she

751
01:26:59,708 --> 01:27:01,750
grabbed it, we swam back to the dinghy

752
01:27:01,750 --> 01:27:04,500
where we had a bucket of

753
01:27:04,916 --> 01:27:07,375
fresh sea water to place the animal in

754
01:27:07,375 --> 01:27:08,750
before we take the

755
01:27:08,750 --> 01:27:12,041
information we need from it. And I got

756
01:27:12,041 --> 01:27:14,500
in the boat first and Chris passes me the

757
01:27:14,500 --> 01:27:16,250
shark and I was like, "Hey, this is

758
01:27:16,250 --> 01:27:18,416
different!" And I was like,

759
01:27:20,458 --> 01:27:24,250
"This is, it's not my collide. Like I

760
01:27:24,250 --> 01:27:25,875
think this is house Ramay

761
01:27:25,875 --> 01:27:30,208
and house Ramay is the species,

762
01:27:30,625 --> 01:27:33,625
the Pupwin walking shark and that one's

763
01:27:33,625 --> 01:27:34,333
the one that's actually

764
01:27:34,333 --> 01:27:36,208
meant to be found up towards Port

765
01:27:36,208 --> 01:27:41,166
Moresby. Oh, okay. So this was really far

766
01:27:41,166 --> 01:27:42,125
from the known range of

767
01:27:42,125 --> 01:27:44,541
that species and we had had no

768
01:27:44,916 --> 01:27:46,625
indication that this is what we're going

769
01:27:46,625 --> 01:27:48,250
to be finding. So just to

770
01:27:48,250 --> 01:27:49,541
give people context, how far

771
01:27:49,666 --> 01:27:52,458
is Port Moresby from where you were? Um,

772
01:27:52,458 --> 01:27:58,041
so I would say over 800 kilometers.

773
01:27:59,041 --> 01:28:00,541
That's a distance. Yeah.

774
01:28:02,375 --> 01:28:03,916
Sorry, my dog's just being a little bit

775
01:28:03,916 --> 01:28:08,458
crazy. No worries. No worries. We are a

776
01:28:08,458 --> 01:28:10,166
dog friendly podcast,

777
01:28:10,500 --> 01:28:13,000
a pet friendly podcast. He just needs

778
01:28:13,000 --> 01:28:15,208
attention. Hey, there he is.

779
01:28:15,250 --> 01:28:16,875
Let's pick up a little bit here. You

780
01:28:16,875 --> 01:28:19,541
can't look at him. Hey, this

781
01:28:19,541 --> 01:28:22,375
is Kenny. Oh, is he like a,

782
01:28:22,750 --> 01:28:25,375
like a bully mix or he's a blue stuffy.

783
01:28:25,375 --> 01:28:28,166
Oh, look at him. Yeah. He's

784
01:28:28,166 --> 01:28:30,875
adorable. He is very needy.

785
01:28:31,750 --> 01:28:34,000
Yes. He often gets jealous when I'm

786
01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:34,916
talking to the computer.

787
01:28:36,833 --> 01:28:39,625
Like, why can't they pet me? Why can't

788
01:28:39,625 --> 01:28:40,000
they? Yeah, exactly.

789
01:28:41,416 --> 01:28:50,000
Um, sorry. Um, but yes, he, the spaces

790
01:28:50,000 --> 01:28:53,291
that we found further, um,

791
01:28:53,500 --> 01:28:54,583
past the conflict islands,

792
01:28:54,750 --> 01:28:57,333
yeah, was completely different in color

793
01:28:57,333 --> 01:29:02,416
pattern and, um, was very similar to

794
01:29:03,083 --> 01:29:04,875
the Papuan walking shark. So we were

795
01:29:04,875 --> 01:29:06,166
really excited about that.

796
01:29:06,166 --> 01:29:07,208
That is exciting. Yeah. Um,

797
01:29:08,208 --> 01:29:11,666
but we weren't sure if it was going to be

798
01:29:11,666 --> 01:29:12,875
a crossover zone for

799
01:29:12,875 --> 01:29:13,916
the two species where we

800
01:29:13,916 --> 01:29:17,666
could find both. Oh yeah. The species.

801
01:29:18,291 --> 01:29:19,416
But, um, after a few

802
01:29:19,416 --> 01:29:21,125
more surveys, we, um,

803
01:29:21,875 --> 01:29:24,166
basically found that at these group of

804
01:29:24,166 --> 01:29:28,750
islands, it was just, um, the Papuan

805
01:29:28,750 --> 01:29:30,166
species. And then we

806
01:29:30,166 --> 01:29:32,458
went over another deep water barrier to a

807
01:29:32,458 --> 01:29:33,333
place called the Roswell

808
01:29:33,333 --> 01:29:35,541
islands. Yeah. The furthest

809
01:29:36,291 --> 01:29:40,000
eastern island in Millam Bay. It's way,

810
01:29:40,000 --> 01:29:42,000
way off in addition. If you

811
01:29:42,000 --> 01:29:43,208
look at the map, it's a tiny

812
01:29:43,250 --> 01:29:47,791
little dot at the very end. Um, and we

813
01:29:47,791 --> 01:29:48,875
did a couple of surveys

814
01:29:48,875 --> 01:29:50,500
there and we found Michael's

815
01:29:50,500 --> 01:29:53,458
walking shark, which is the main species

816
01:29:53,458 --> 01:29:54,125
that we had been

817
01:29:54,125 --> 01:29:57,791
working on. Um, can you stop?

818
01:29:58,666 --> 01:30:03,708
That's okay. No worries. Um, so we were

819
01:30:03,708 --> 01:30:05,333
at the Russell islands. Yes.

820
01:30:06,000 --> 01:30:09,875
Yes. Um, and we again found

821
01:30:09,875 --> 01:30:12,208
Michael's walking shark out there. So

822
01:30:12,208 --> 01:30:14,208
that's after another deep water barrier.

823
01:30:14,541 --> 01:30:16,458
Um, and that's kind of

824
01:30:17,250 --> 01:30:18,750
brought up all these questions about the

825
01:30:18,750 --> 01:30:19,916
distribution because with

826
01:30:19,916 --> 01:30:21,083
all of the other species,

827
01:30:21,583 --> 01:30:23,333
particularly the ones found in West

828
01:30:23,333 --> 01:30:26,041
Papua, they all have these really

829
01:30:26,041 --> 01:30:27,208
distinct distributions that

830
01:30:28,125 --> 01:30:31,291
don't overlap at all. And now we've found

831
01:30:31,291 --> 01:30:35,250
overlapping, but not co-occurring. So

832
01:30:37,541 --> 01:30:40,458
yeah, it's raised so many questions. I

833
01:30:40,458 --> 01:30:41,875
can imagine. Did you

834
01:30:41,875 --> 01:30:43,125
recognize right away that

835
01:30:43,708 --> 01:30:45,666
based on the color pattern, that there

836
01:30:45,666 --> 01:30:46,416
was a different species?

837
01:30:46,875 --> 01:30:47,708
Well, you said you did when

838
01:30:47,708 --> 01:30:49,041
you got it up in the boat. Chris was

839
01:30:49,041 --> 01:30:49,708
like, Oh my God, it's a

840
01:30:49,708 --> 01:30:50,791
different species or something.

841
01:30:51,333 --> 01:30:52,791
So you kind of, you kind of knew, right?

842
01:30:52,791 --> 01:30:53,333
It was right. One of those

843
01:30:53,333 --> 01:30:54,375
moments you really knew like,

844
01:30:54,375 --> 01:30:56,208
okay, there's something different. Yeah.

845
01:30:56,500 --> 01:30:57,625
Just, just so people know

846
01:30:57,625 --> 01:30:58,750
these sharks, they're really

847
01:30:58,833 --> 01:31:01,125
some of the prettiest sharks. I can think

848
01:31:01,125 --> 01:31:01,875
of as far as a group

849
01:31:01,875 --> 01:31:04,250
goes, but there's almost no

850
01:31:04,583 --> 01:31:06,750
morphological differences besides the

851
01:31:06,750 --> 01:31:07,875
color pattern and

852
01:31:07,875 --> 01:31:10,333
genetics. Correct? Yeah, correct.

853
01:31:10,875 --> 01:31:12,791
So color pattern and where they found is

854
01:31:12,791 --> 01:31:15,375
kind of the main key to figuring out

855
01:31:15,875 --> 01:31:18,208
which one you're looking at. Yeah.

856
01:31:18,208 --> 01:31:19,041
Because I think like, you know, you

857
01:31:19,041 --> 01:31:19,833
preserve some of these

858
01:31:19,833 --> 01:31:21,041
things and I don't know if you've,

859
01:31:21,041 --> 01:31:22,125
you probably looked at some of the museum

860
01:31:22,125 --> 01:31:23,750
specimens when you did your thing and

861
01:31:23,750 --> 01:31:25,375
they probably all look kind of a

862
01:31:25,791 --> 01:31:29,416
drabby brown or something with, yeah,

863
01:31:29,416 --> 01:31:31,500
poor coloration. They

864
01:31:31,500 --> 01:31:34,250
do have some, some of the

865
01:31:35,000 --> 01:31:39,000
defining features do still come out even

866
01:31:39,000 --> 01:31:40,500
in some of the specimens

867
01:31:40,500 --> 01:31:41,791
that have been preserved for 200

868
01:31:42,041 --> 01:31:46,000
years, but it is very faint. Yeah. Okay.

869
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:47,750
Okay. So you got, so you got

870
01:31:47,750 --> 01:31:49,666
this thing and so you got this

871
01:31:49,666 --> 01:31:50,916
shark and you realized it was something

872
01:31:50,916 --> 01:31:53,500
new. So what, what, what did you do next?

873
01:31:53,500 --> 01:31:54,291
What was the next step?

874
01:31:56,291 --> 01:32:00,708
The next step, we actually went back to

875
01:32:00,708 --> 01:32:03,541
the main boat and woke up Mark.

876
01:32:03,541 --> 01:32:09,750
Mark was asleep at this point. And he got

877
01:32:09,750 --> 01:32:11,583
excited and came and did some surveys and

878
01:32:11,583 --> 01:32:12,916
took some pretty pictures.

879
01:32:15,375 --> 01:32:18,791
And then we, so basically when we catch

880
01:32:18,791 --> 01:32:20,750
the sharks, we collect some

881
01:32:20,750 --> 01:32:22,500
morphological information.

882
01:32:23,666 --> 01:32:27,750
We collect a fin clip. So we take a

883
01:32:27,750 --> 01:32:28,416
little clip for the

884
01:32:28,416 --> 01:32:31,000
genetics from its dorsal fin. No.

885
01:32:31,875 --> 01:32:36,250
Yeah. And then we also take a cloacal

886
01:32:36,250 --> 01:32:38,041
swab to kind of see what

887
01:32:38,041 --> 01:32:39,375
they've been eating, hopefully.

888
01:32:41,666 --> 01:32:46,500
And then we take photos of them and then

889
01:32:46,500 --> 01:32:50,000
we release them. So we're

890
01:32:50,000 --> 01:32:51,250
just trying to collect as much

891
01:32:51,250 --> 01:32:53,208
information as possible because there is

892
01:32:53,208 --> 01:32:55,583
no information. Yeah. But

893
01:32:55,583 --> 01:32:57,458
now when you went to describe

894
01:32:57,666 --> 01:32:59,083
this thing, you had to get some specimens

895
01:32:59,083 --> 01:33:03,708
for preservation. Yeah. So that's

896
01:33:03,708 --> 01:33:04,666
actually in a different

897
01:33:04,666 --> 01:33:06,708
location. So that was on a different

898
01:33:06,708 --> 01:33:10,083
trip. So same thing happened. Chris

899
01:33:10,083 --> 01:33:11,625
passed me a shark on a boat

900
01:33:11,625 --> 01:33:13,208
and I say, Chris, this is something

901
01:33:13,208 --> 01:33:14,583
different. And she's like, again?

902
01:33:14,583 --> 01:33:24,500
Which is pretty cool. But yeah, so this

903
01:33:24,500 --> 01:33:26,250
one was at the Amplett

904
01:33:26,250 --> 01:33:28,416
Islands, which is just north of the

905
01:33:28,416 --> 01:33:30,833
Tiendre Castor Islands. It's still in the

906
01:33:30,833 --> 01:33:35,208
Mill and Bay Province. And this one has

907
01:33:35,208 --> 01:33:36,583
all of these small, like,

908
01:33:37,541 --> 01:33:41,500
white dots and dashes on along it, which

909
01:33:41,500 --> 01:33:44,166
is pretty unique for this

910
01:33:44,166 --> 01:33:46,000
genus. Like, it's not similar to

911
01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:48,041
anything else, really. Now, there was a

912
01:33:48,041 --> 01:33:49,166
similar to the one you'd already

913
01:33:49,166 --> 01:33:51,000
collected, or was this one

914
01:33:51,000 --> 01:33:53,458
also different? So this one was

915
01:33:53,458 --> 01:33:55,083
different. So the one that we saw on the

916
01:33:55,083 --> 01:33:56,416
first trip was actually the

917
01:33:57,083 --> 01:33:59,458
disarranged extension, basically. Okay.

918
01:34:00,958 --> 01:34:02,791
Of the species that's

919
01:34:02,791 --> 01:34:03,875
found in Port Moresby.

920
01:34:05,500 --> 01:34:11,708
And then on a trip last year in March, we

921
01:34:11,708 --> 01:34:12,791
were doing the same

922
01:34:12,791 --> 01:34:14,833
thing, diving and snorkeling to

923
01:34:14,833 --> 01:34:17,958
find these sharks. And again, it was me

924
01:34:17,958 --> 01:34:19,541
and Chris and Chris passed me

925
01:34:19,541 --> 01:34:22,000
this animal and saw it in the

926
01:34:22,041 --> 01:34:24,458
light. And I was like, Chris, Chris.

927
01:34:25,500 --> 01:34:29,708
Like, it's, it's pretty funny, because as

928
01:34:29,708 --> 01:34:30,833
soon as she passed it to

929
01:34:30,833 --> 01:34:33,875
me, I was, I knew it was

930
01:34:33,875 --> 01:34:35,708
different to Michael's Walking Shark,

931
01:34:35,708 --> 01:34:37,708
which is the main species that I work on.

932
01:34:37,708 --> 01:34:42,208
Yeah. And just completely

933
01:34:42,208 --> 01:34:46,833
different color pattern. And we got

934
01:34:46,833 --> 01:34:48,500
really excited. We only found one that

935
01:34:48,500 --> 01:34:50,166
night, though. So we ended up

936
01:34:50,208 --> 01:34:51,958
staying for a few days and trying to find

937
01:34:51,958 --> 01:34:55,541
some more. So you're able to see so you

938
01:34:55,541 --> 01:34:56,958
have what you basically got so far, you

939
01:34:56,958 --> 01:34:57,833
got one new species

940
01:34:57,833 --> 01:34:59,083
that you just described.

941
01:35:00,083 --> 01:35:03,708
And so what can you talk to us about how

942
01:35:03,708 --> 01:35:06,916
that that whole process like when you had

943
01:35:06,916 --> 01:35:08,500
this had this thing, you said, okay, I'm

944
01:35:08,500 --> 01:35:09,375
going to describe this.

945
01:35:09,625 --> 01:35:11,041
And all the students out there, the grad

946
01:35:11,041 --> 01:35:13,208
students listening, listen carefully. How

947
01:35:13,208 --> 01:35:15,125
does this do you want to butter up one of

948
01:35:15,125 --> 01:35:16,416
your professors on your committee?

949
01:35:16,833 --> 01:35:17,583
Listen carefully.

950
01:35:19,458 --> 01:35:21,791
Yes, yes, it is a good way to butter up

951
01:35:21,791 --> 01:35:24,916
to name a new shark after

952
01:35:24,916 --> 01:35:26,416
one of your supervisors.

953
01:35:27,541 --> 01:35:33,166
But yeah, so basically, we, we caught

954
01:35:33,166 --> 01:35:35,625
these sharks, we ended up having to

955
01:35:35,625 --> 01:35:39,416
collect some specimens for the Tysonoid

956
01:35:39,416 --> 01:35:43,250
description, which is not really my

957
01:35:43,250 --> 01:35:44,875
favorite thing as somebody who wants to

958
01:35:44,875 --> 01:35:47,041
conserve sharks. You don't really like

959
01:35:47,041 --> 01:35:50,541
having to euthanize any. But

960
01:35:50,541 --> 01:35:52,666
unfortunately, we have to have museum

961
01:35:52,666 --> 01:35:54,833
specimens for long term preservation.

962
01:35:54,875 --> 01:35:59,000
So we ended up collecting three

963
01:35:59,000 --> 01:36:04,333
specimens, which I think it

964
01:36:04,333 --> 01:36:06,416
was two males and one female.

965
01:36:09,000 --> 01:36:13,000
And then basically, we had to take more

966
01:36:13,000 --> 01:36:17,500
detailed morphometrics in line with the

967
01:36:17,500 --> 01:36:20,833
other species descriptions in this genus.

968
01:36:20,833 --> 01:36:29,333
And then we basically had to take these

969
01:36:29,333 --> 01:36:30,458
animals back to Australia.

970
01:36:31,625 --> 01:36:35,416
We put two two are currently in Australia

971
01:36:35,416 --> 01:36:37,208
and then the other one.

972
01:36:37,208 --> 01:36:41,541
The dog is being crazy. I picture is is

973
01:36:41,541 --> 01:36:43,375
is just going around and around trying to

974
01:36:43,375 --> 01:36:44,541
figure out what's comfortable.

975
01:36:45,833 --> 01:36:47,458
He was literally just doing zoomies in

976
01:36:47,458 --> 01:36:52,041
circles. I think his tail buddy.

977
01:36:54,833 --> 01:36:57,083
I don't know if you could hear him like,

978
01:36:57,291 --> 01:36:59,541
yeah, we can hear it a little bit. It's

979
01:36:59,541 --> 01:37:02,583
so cute. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

980
01:37:03,000 --> 01:37:06,375
It's normally not this bad. Hey, it's

981
01:37:06,375 --> 01:37:08,333
it's it's his day. It's his day to do the

982
01:37:08,333 --> 01:37:10,000
zoomies. He wants to

983
01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:11,458
be famous. Absolutely.

984
01:37:12,833 --> 01:37:17,416
But yes, it's it's definitely a process

985
01:37:17,416 --> 01:37:21,250
during the taxonomic description. I

986
01:37:21,250 --> 01:37:23,666
worked with Jerry Allen

987
01:37:23,666 --> 01:37:25,833
for that as well. Yep.

988
01:37:26,833 --> 01:37:34,416
And basically, he also got x rays done of

989
01:37:34,416 --> 01:37:36,416
the two individuals that are in

990
01:37:36,416 --> 01:37:41,416
Australia. One is at the Queensland

991
01:37:41,416 --> 01:37:44,583
Museum and one is at the museum in WA.

992
01:37:45,208 --> 01:37:48,458
And then one is also at the University of

993
01:37:48,458 --> 01:37:50,000
Papua New Guinea in there.

994
01:37:50,000 --> 01:37:51,833
Okay, cool. Yeah, that's good.

995
01:37:51,833 --> 01:37:54,416
And what's it like for you to be like

996
01:37:54,416 --> 01:37:57,500
part of your PhD you describe a species

997
01:37:57,500 --> 01:38:01,125
like that's a pretty big accolade.

998
01:38:01,125 --> 01:38:02,208
That's a big deal.

999
01:38:03,833 --> 01:38:06,916
It's not something I thought would happen

1000
01:38:06,916 --> 01:38:11,333
in my PhD and very exciting to be

1001
01:38:11,333 --> 01:38:13,500
involved with that. It's pretty cool.

1002
01:38:14,125 --> 01:38:15,916
What what point did you decide you're

1003
01:38:15,916 --> 01:38:16,833
gonna name it after your professor?

1004
01:38:16,875 --> 01:38:21,416
So we had a bit of a conversation about

1005
01:38:21,416 --> 01:38:25,625
it, not with Chris. Mark, Jerry and I and

1006
01:38:25,625 --> 01:38:27,625
myself had a bit of a conversation and,

1007
01:38:28,083 --> 01:38:31,708
you know, Chris for people who don't know

1008
01:38:31,708 --> 01:38:32,833
or who will get to know her in the next episode.

1009
01:38:32,875 --> 01:38:37,291
Chris has been working in this field for

1010
01:38:37,291 --> 01:38:41,250
20 plus years. She's a genetic geneticist

1011
01:38:41,250 --> 01:38:45,500
and she is just a wonderful, amazing

1012
01:38:45,500 --> 01:38:50,291
human. So we really wanted to give her

1013
01:38:50,291 --> 01:38:52,291
kind of her flowers

1014
01:38:52,291 --> 01:38:54,833
for all that she does.

1015
01:38:54,833 --> 01:38:57,125
And this is kind of like, you know, one

1016
01:38:57,125 --> 01:38:58,583
of the nicest ways that you can do it.

1017
01:38:59,416 --> 01:39:01,083
And she's actually one of the very few

1018
01:39:01,083 --> 01:39:03,041
female scientists that have a shark named

1019
01:39:03,041 --> 01:39:07,333
after her. Like, I think it's Eugenie

1020
01:39:07,333 --> 01:39:15,541
Clark, Shannon, Corrigan and then I think

1021
01:39:15,541 --> 01:39:16,375
there's maybe one or

1022
01:39:16,375 --> 01:39:17,541
two others and then Chris.

1023
01:39:17,833 --> 01:39:20,333
So it's very rare for

1024
01:39:20,333 --> 01:39:22,416
female shark scientists to have.

1025
01:39:23,000 --> 01:39:25,041
Well, Dominic Dittier, we named a shark

1026
01:39:25,041 --> 01:39:27,250
after the colleague and good friend very

1027
01:39:27,250 --> 01:39:29,125
accomplished with go shark. I know we

1028
01:39:29,125 --> 01:39:31,916
need I think we named one. But you're

1029
01:39:31,916 --> 01:39:34,000
right. There's not like a lot of there's

1030
01:39:34,000 --> 01:39:35,708
not a lot. I have to think that's a great

1031
01:39:35,708 --> 01:39:36,625
question. I don't even know what the

1032
01:39:36,625 --> 01:39:38,083
answer is off the top. I could think

1033
01:39:38,083 --> 01:39:39,291
think of some of the people you

1034
01:39:39,291 --> 01:39:41,833
mentioned. But yeah, that's.

1035
01:39:41,833 --> 01:39:44,791
Yeah, I think it's it's quite low. Like,

1036
01:39:45,583 --> 01:39:48,875
I believe it's under 10. Yeah, it's quite

1037
01:39:48,875 --> 01:39:53,083
like, and then you think of the male

1038
01:39:53,083 --> 01:39:57,625
scientists with things. But yeah, so it's

1039
01:39:57,625 --> 01:40:00,208
kind of nice to, you know, do something

1040
01:40:00,208 --> 01:40:01,958
nice for another woman in science as

1041
01:40:01,958 --> 01:40:04,416
well. And yeah, it's very, very deserving

1042
01:40:04,416 --> 01:40:06,500
of stuff. But I'm sure it was a good way

1043
01:40:06,500 --> 01:40:08,791
to get your help out with your thesis

1044
01:40:08,791 --> 01:40:10,791
too. So there's definitely a big

1045
01:40:11,833 --> 01:40:12,250
thing that I think that's something named

1046
01:40:12,250 --> 01:40:14,791
after you like that. So, you know, so

1047
01:40:14,791 --> 01:40:15,958
actually, I just have another one

1048
01:40:15,958 --> 01:40:18,250
actually named the shark after my niece.

1049
01:40:19,333 --> 01:40:21,583
So, nice. Yeah, I forgot how to forget

1050
01:40:21,583 --> 01:40:25,208
about that one. Sorry, Lana. Lana saw

1051
01:40:25,208 --> 01:40:27,333
shark forgot about that one. So anyway,

1052
01:40:28,083 --> 01:40:31,000
cool. That's that's that's that's that's

1053
01:40:31,000 --> 01:40:32,000
that's really that's really nice of you

1054
01:40:32,000 --> 01:40:34,125
to do. And just for the people out there

1055
01:40:34,125 --> 01:40:37,000
know we're Christine's Christine's

1056
01:40:37,000 --> 01:40:37,666
dungeon is going to be in our next

1057
01:40:37,666 --> 01:40:40,833
episode. We're already planning to invite

1058
01:40:40,833 --> 01:40:41,833
her on the show. And then I said, I'm going to do a little bit of a

1059
01:40:41,875 --> 01:40:45,833
little one. And Iole told you in two

1060
01:40:45,833 --> 01:40:57,583
weeks just about. I was here when the

1061
01:40:57,625 --> 01:40:59,625
in the wild myself, but

1062
01:40:59,625 --> 01:41:02,500
definitely a fun group to work on

1063
01:41:02,500 --> 01:41:03,000
because you can actually

1064
01:41:03,000 --> 01:41:05,291
see them alive and dive.

1065
01:41:05,291 --> 01:41:07,083
Yeah, that is pretty cool.

1066
01:41:07,875 --> 01:41:08,791
And you get to dive on

1067
01:41:08,791 --> 01:41:09,791
beautiful coral reefs.

1068
01:41:10,125 --> 01:41:10,833
Yeah, okay, don't rub

1069
01:41:10,833 --> 01:41:11,541
that in, that's right.

1070
01:41:12,708 --> 01:41:12,750
(laughing)

1071
01:41:14,791 --> 01:41:18,541
And it's like 28 to 30 degrees in the

1072
01:41:18,541 --> 01:41:20,125
water, like Celsius.

1073
01:41:21,166 --> 01:41:22,875
In comparison to diving in Tasmania,

1074
01:41:24,083 --> 01:41:25,416
where it's 13 degrees, so

1075
01:41:25,416 --> 01:41:27,375
it's nice to go warm up.

1076
01:41:27,833 --> 01:41:30,000
Yeah, so I share the story with everybody

1077
01:41:30,333 --> 01:41:31,208
because Jess and I were

1078
01:41:31,208 --> 01:41:32,041
talking before the air,

1079
01:41:32,250 --> 01:41:34,125
my first time, growing

1080
01:41:34,125 --> 01:41:35,000
up, like a lot of people,

1081
01:41:35,000 --> 01:41:35,708
I wanted to go diving in

1082
01:41:35,708 --> 01:41:36,625
the Great Barrier Reef,

1083
01:41:37,166 --> 01:41:38,083
and the first time I went to

1084
01:41:38,083 --> 01:41:39,791
Australia, I went to Tasmania,

1085
01:41:40,708 --> 01:41:42,875
and my first dive in

1086
01:41:42,875 --> 01:41:44,291
Australia was in Tasmania,

1087
01:41:44,708 --> 01:41:46,000
in a kelp forest in about

1088
01:41:46,000 --> 01:41:47,541
10 degrees centigrade water,

1089
01:41:48,041 --> 01:41:48,916
which if I want to do

1090
01:41:48,916 --> 01:41:50,000
that, I live here in Monterey,

1091
01:41:50,291 --> 01:41:50,833
so I could have just

1092
01:41:50,833 --> 01:41:52,375
gone out here in Monterey,

1093
01:41:53,250 --> 01:41:55,500
where I grew up, and just gone diving in

1094
01:41:55,500 --> 01:41:57,000
10 degrees Celsius water,

1095
01:41:57,375 --> 01:41:58,416
with kelp beds in there.

1096
01:41:58,666 --> 01:42:01,250
So for me, it was a little bit of a...

1097
01:42:02,041 --> 01:42:03,250
You didn't have to fly across the world.

1098
01:42:04,208 --> 01:42:04,791
Yeah, I fly away to

1099
01:42:04,791 --> 01:42:07,083
Australia and end up in there.

1100
01:42:07,333 --> 01:42:09,000
So thanks to Will White, Peter Lass,

1101
01:42:09,000 --> 01:42:10,750
thanks guys for that

1102
01:42:10,750 --> 01:42:12,583
memorable experience.

1103
01:42:13,583 --> 01:42:16,041
Anyway, well Jess, this has been really

1104
01:42:16,041 --> 01:42:17,333
terrific hearing this story

1105
01:42:17,458 --> 01:42:21,000
about your discovery of this white shark.

1106
01:42:21,500 --> 01:42:24,166
This guy got a white shark in my head.

1107
01:42:24,875 --> 01:42:26,500
Anyway, I'm a long guy.

1108
01:42:27,000 --> 01:42:28,208
I'm not like a lost shark guy. I don't

1109
01:42:28,208 --> 01:42:28,791
want to think of a white shark.

1110
01:42:29,000 --> 01:42:30,708
Anyway, I was supposed

1111
01:42:30,708 --> 01:42:31,583
to say walking shark.

1112
01:42:31,583 --> 01:42:33,041
I got the W right.

1113
01:42:33,875 --> 01:42:35,666
It's a really great story.

1114
01:42:35,666 --> 01:42:37,416
And so now, just to kind of finish up

1115
01:42:37,416 --> 01:42:38,125
here for this episode,

1116
01:42:38,125 --> 01:42:39,833
what are you going to... you're working

1117
01:42:39,833 --> 01:42:41,083
on your last chapter now?

1118
01:42:42,583 --> 01:42:44,208
I'm trying to smash out

1119
01:42:44,208 --> 01:42:45,416
three chapters at once. Oh, okay.

1120
01:42:45,458 --> 01:42:48,541
There you go. That's how you do it.

1121
01:42:48,791 --> 01:42:53,041
Yeah, yeah. Because why not? So yeah, I'm

1122
01:42:53,041 --> 01:42:54,208
meant to hand in in April.

1123
01:42:55,000 --> 01:42:59,000
Okay. So currently just trying to get the

1124
01:42:59,000 --> 01:43:01,125
writing and the analysis done.

1125
01:43:01,416 --> 01:43:03,125
And we also have another trip in October

1126
01:43:03,125 --> 01:43:05,416
plan to collect postdoc data.

1127
01:43:06,166 --> 01:43:09,875
Okay. So just trying to do everything on.

1128
01:43:09,875 --> 01:43:10,708
Okay, so the plan's in place. Yeah.

1129
01:43:11,583 --> 01:43:12,458
Right on the ground, we're for your

1130
01:43:12,458 --> 01:43:13,416
postdoc. That's great.

1131
01:43:13,458 --> 01:43:15,250
Good for you. Good for you. Good for you.

1132
01:43:15,250 --> 01:43:16,166
Students listening out

1133
01:43:16,166 --> 01:43:17,166
there, that's how you do it.

1134
01:43:17,166 --> 01:43:18,541
You start laying the groundwork for the

1135
01:43:18,541 --> 01:43:20,000
next step. That's great.

1136
01:43:20,000 --> 01:43:21,583
Yeah. And of course you accidentally find

1137
01:43:21,583 --> 01:43:23,666
these new species of sharks every time

1138
01:43:23,666 --> 01:43:25,083
you go snorkeling helps too.

1139
01:43:25,416 --> 01:43:27,458
Yeah. Exactly. Sounds like it.

1140
01:43:27,500 --> 01:43:28,458
Sounds like it.

1141
01:43:29,708 --> 01:43:32,458
Anyway, just thanks so much for coming on

1142
01:43:32,458 --> 01:43:33,333
today. We're definitely

1143
01:43:33,333 --> 01:43:34,208
going to have you back.

1144
01:43:34,208 --> 01:43:36,791
Maybe after you get your PhD done, you

1145
01:43:36,791 --> 01:43:38,083
get settled into a postdoc.

1146
01:43:38,458 --> 01:43:39,916
Why don't you plan to come back on and

1147
01:43:39,916 --> 01:43:40,958
share with us what you're up to?

1148
01:43:41,416 --> 01:43:42,416
Love that. Sounds great.

1149
01:43:42,458 --> 01:43:44,166
Yeah. That'd be great. Thank you.

1150
01:43:44,291 --> 01:43:45,000
That'd be great. Thank you

1151
01:43:45,000 --> 01:43:46,541
so much. Awesome. Thank you.

1152
01:43:47,416 --> 01:43:48,625
Thank you, Jess, for joining us on

1153
01:43:48,625 --> 01:43:49,750
today's episode of

1154
01:43:49,750 --> 01:43:51,000
the Beyond Jaws podcast.

1155
01:43:51,625 --> 01:43:53,833
Dave, walking sharks are cool. It seems

1156
01:43:53,833 --> 01:43:55,208
like there's more than we

1157
01:43:55,208 --> 01:43:56,583
ever thought there were.

1158
01:43:57,000 --> 01:43:59,750
And it seems like Jess is the key to

1159
01:43:59,750 --> 01:44:01,958
finding new species, Jess and Chris,

1160
01:44:01,958 --> 01:44:03,791
because they just keep picking them up

1161
01:44:03,791 --> 01:44:05,291
and just finding that, hey, this is new.

1162
01:44:05,291 --> 01:44:06,166
This is new. This is

1163
01:44:06,166 --> 01:44:06,416
new. This is pretty cool.

1164
01:44:06,416 --> 01:44:08,916
Yeah. Oh yeah. That's great. But we got

1165
01:44:08,916 --> 01:44:10,541
to give a shout out to Kenny, our

1166
01:44:10,541 --> 01:44:12,500
unexpected guest on the show today.

1167
01:44:14,500 --> 01:44:16,833
Kenny is Jess' dog. And you probably

1168
01:44:16,833 --> 01:44:18,500
heard whether you're on audio or you're

1169
01:44:18,500 --> 01:44:20,333
listening to this on video, you probably

1170
01:44:20,333 --> 01:44:21,375
heard us talk about

1171
01:44:21,375 --> 01:44:22,166
Kenny throughout the episode.

1172
01:44:22,416 --> 01:44:23,500
Because I decided we're going to keep it

1173
01:44:23,500 --> 01:44:24,958
in because I think it's fun. We love

1174
01:44:24,958 --> 01:44:27,208
having dogs on the podcast. And he had a

1175
01:44:27,208 --> 01:44:28,958
little bit of zoomies as he was going

1176
01:44:28,958 --> 01:44:30,458
through the episode.

1177
01:44:30,458 --> 01:44:32,333
He was excited about walking sharks. You

1178
01:44:32,333 --> 01:44:33,583
want to walk around, be like, is this how

1179
01:44:33,583 --> 01:44:34,416
they walk? Is this how they walk?

1180
01:44:34,416 --> 01:44:37,750
Yeah. Oh yeah. No, that was that was some

1181
01:44:37,750 --> 01:44:39,375
of the best parts of the story. He said

1182
01:44:39,375 --> 01:44:40,916
every time she did, we're out to this

1183
01:44:40,916 --> 01:44:42,791
area. They really hadn't surveyed before.

1184
01:44:42,791 --> 01:44:44,166
They kept pulling up a new shark. I was

1185
01:44:44,166 --> 01:44:45,583
like, hey, here's why. And she goes,

1186
01:44:45,583 --> 01:44:48,250
damn, it's another new shark. So which I

1187
01:44:48,250 --> 01:44:50,291
thought was pretty hilarious. Yeah.

1188
01:44:51,416 --> 01:44:54,083
Usually, I've told explain before you get

1189
01:44:54,083 --> 01:44:56,083
those moments where like, just explain

1190
01:44:56,083 --> 01:44:57,208
where you're like, wow, this is something

1191
01:44:57,208 --> 01:44:59,500
new. Yeah. But more often than not,

1192
01:44:59,500 --> 01:45:01,000
you're kind of going like, I'm not sure

1193
01:45:01,000 --> 01:45:03,083
it might be new. Right. I'm not 100%

1194
01:45:03,416 --> 01:45:06,541
sure. But yeah, so it's kind of cool when

1195
01:45:06,541 --> 01:45:08,291
you actually get one that's you're like,

1196
01:45:08,291 --> 01:45:09,750
yeah, this is this is definitely a new

1197
01:45:09,750 --> 01:45:10,583
species like that. And

1198
01:45:10,583 --> 01:45:11,416
there's a lot of excitement there.

1199
01:45:11,416 --> 01:45:13,333
When I think what I think what's

1200
01:45:13,333 --> 01:45:14,875
interesting too about because like I've

1201
01:45:14,875 --> 01:45:17,458
always been told, you know, when I when I

1202
01:45:17,458 --> 01:45:19,208
was a student, I'll never forget this.

1203
01:45:19,208 --> 01:45:21,625
Like people are like, don't just focus on

1204
01:45:21,625 --> 01:45:23,625
the the exterior, like the coloring.

1205
01:45:23,625 --> 01:45:25,666
Yeah, you could focus on like some of the

1206
01:45:25,666 --> 01:45:26,958
morphology. And sometimes that includes

1207
01:45:26,958 --> 01:45:29,375
like the ridges or coloring and things

1208
01:45:29,375 --> 01:45:31,583
like that. And also, you know, as we get

1209
01:45:31,583 --> 01:45:33,083
more and more towards genetics, the

1210
01:45:33,083 --> 01:45:35,041
genetics count. But it seems like walking

1211
01:45:35,041 --> 01:45:37,708
sharks, it is some of the designs and the

1212
01:45:37,708 --> 01:45:39,750
colors and the spots or non spots and

1213
01:45:39,750 --> 01:45:41,375
things like that on the sharks.

1214
01:45:41,458 --> 01:45:43,708
And that's is that unique to sharks in

1215
01:45:43,708 --> 01:45:46,500
general? No, this is actually because

1216
01:45:46,500 --> 01:45:48,291
some sharks are infected never built

1217
01:45:48,291 --> 01:45:50,125
changes with growth. Well, we talked

1218
01:45:50,125 --> 01:45:53,666
about the zebra. Yeah, leopard shark. And

1219
01:45:53,666 --> 01:45:55,333
as we mentioned during the show, like,

1220
01:45:55,333 --> 01:45:56,875
you know, they change color from when

1221
01:45:56,875 --> 01:45:58,375
they're born to when they grow up. And

1222
01:45:58,375 --> 01:46:00,875
it's the birth size where they got the

1223
01:46:00,875 --> 01:46:05,375
name sort of leopard shark. Right. And

1224
01:46:05,375 --> 01:46:08,375
then as they grow, they change the spot

1225
01:46:08,375 --> 01:46:09,416
more of a spotting pattern.

1226
01:46:09,416 --> 01:46:13,833
And so, yeah, it colors. It's a character

1227
01:46:13,833 --> 01:46:15,583
you can use, but you shouldn't be the

1228
01:46:15,583 --> 01:46:17,791
only one rely on it. Right. But on these

1229
01:46:17,791 --> 01:46:20,500
walking sharks and the other group I

1230
01:46:20,500 --> 01:46:21,750
mentioned the shy sharks in

1231
01:46:21,750 --> 01:46:23,375
South Africa, the same thing.

1232
01:46:24,333 --> 01:46:26,000
There's when you measure them up and I've

1233
01:46:26,000 --> 01:46:28,000
the shy sharks, I've done a lot of those.

1234
01:46:28,000 --> 01:46:30,041
You can't really tell them apart

1235
01:46:30,041 --> 01:46:33,125
morphologically. But but the color, you

1236
01:46:33,125 --> 01:46:34,958
can usually separate them on. And these

1237
01:46:34,958 --> 01:46:37,291
walking sharks are the way you can tell

1238
01:46:37,291 --> 01:46:38,416
apart is by the coloration.

1239
01:46:38,416 --> 01:46:41,250
Yeah, there's no real good

1240
01:46:41,250 --> 01:46:44,166
characteristics that they use on that

1241
01:46:44,166 --> 01:46:46,583
they can use other than genetics and I

1242
01:46:46,583 --> 01:46:49,833
think genetics and geography. And I think

1243
01:46:49,833 --> 01:46:51,708
there's one other character. I think she

1244
01:46:51,708 --> 01:46:53,500
said coloring, wasn't it? I think color.

1245
01:46:53,500 --> 01:46:55,208
Yeah, it was the main way to color

1246
01:46:55,208 --> 01:46:56,875
genetics and geography was really the

1247
01:46:56,875 --> 01:46:58,375
three main ways of telling. So in other

1248
01:46:58,375 --> 01:47:00,208
words, they all look alike from a

1249
01:47:00,208 --> 01:47:02,083
morphological perspective, like a body

1250
01:47:02,083 --> 01:47:04,666
shape perspective. But the coloring might

1251
01:47:04,666 --> 01:47:05,958
be different. I think that's that's

1252
01:47:05,958 --> 01:47:06,875
really fascinating. I

1253
01:47:06,875 --> 01:47:07,416
wonder what that evolution is.

1254
01:47:07,416 --> 01:47:10,333
That evolutionary tree looks like for

1255
01:47:10,333 --> 01:47:12,208
them as they as they went along. It's a

1256
01:47:12,208 --> 01:47:13,791
fascinating group because as we talked

1257
01:47:13,791 --> 01:47:15,625
about in the show, you know, particularly

1258
01:47:15,625 --> 01:47:17,333
around Papua New Guinea in that area,

1259
01:47:17,333 --> 01:47:20,416
they have really restricted ranges. I

1260
01:47:20,416 --> 01:47:22,291
mean, like some were like in a bay and

1261
01:47:22,291 --> 01:47:24,458
maybe a little bit along the coast. But

1262
01:47:24,458 --> 01:47:25,916
they're really restricted. They don't

1263
01:47:25,916 --> 01:47:28,291
seem to overlap a lot. A few of them have

1264
01:47:28,291 --> 01:47:30,291
a little bit of an overlap. And the other

1265
01:47:30,291 --> 01:47:33,083
ones, they just don't know. Yeah. So it's

1266
01:47:33,083 --> 01:47:34,708
just it's kind of a from an evolutionary

1267
01:47:34,708 --> 01:47:35,833
standpoint, it's a super

1268
01:47:35,833 --> 01:47:36,416
interesting area of the world.

1269
01:47:36,458 --> 01:47:40,416
Yeah, a little group of sharks. You know,

1270
01:47:40,416 --> 01:47:41,500
again, the only ones I could think that

1271
01:47:41,500 --> 01:47:43,125
would be kind of close to be the shy

1272
01:47:43,125 --> 01:47:45,750
sharks in South Africa, which are three,

1273
01:47:45,750 --> 01:47:48,500
four species there. And they all occupy a

1274
01:47:48,500 --> 01:47:50,916
narrow range of coastline. And that's it

1275
01:47:50,916 --> 01:47:53,666
pretty much. I wonder just be around

1276
01:47:53,666 --> 01:47:57,125
these islands, you know, and knowing how

1277
01:47:57,125 --> 01:48:00,625
old sharks are like, and I don't know how

1278
01:48:00,625 --> 01:48:02,208
old these types of sharks are. If they go

1279
01:48:02,208 --> 01:48:03,958
back, you know, millions of years or

1280
01:48:03,958 --> 01:48:05,416
things like that. I wonder if.

1281
01:48:06,416 --> 01:48:08,291
You know, just being the isolation may

1282
01:48:08,291 --> 01:48:10,458
have just, you know, because they're in

1283
01:48:10,458 --> 01:48:13,291
such these these bays and island areas

1284
01:48:13,291 --> 01:48:16,666
and you know, if those if it's if it is

1285
01:48:16,666 --> 01:48:18,416
millions of years, were some of those

1286
01:48:18,416 --> 01:48:19,875
islands submerged and then they got

1287
01:48:19,875 --> 01:48:22,416
isolated that way, you know, different

1288
01:48:22,416 --> 01:48:24,875
coastal morphology changes and

1289
01:48:24,875 --> 01:48:26,125
earthquakes and things like that that

1290
01:48:26,125 --> 01:48:28,208
could change their their habitat and they

1291
01:48:28,208 --> 01:48:30,125
just get isolated. And I wonder if

1292
01:48:30,125 --> 01:48:32,750
there's any divergence of within the same

1293
01:48:32,750 --> 01:48:33,833
species to see how

1294
01:48:33,833 --> 01:48:34,416
they've different genetically.

1295
01:48:34,458 --> 01:48:36,958
A lot of a lot of questions that people

1296
01:48:36,958 --> 01:48:38,583
can do a lot of research on. It's a great

1297
01:48:38,583 --> 01:48:40,083
group to work on. Like you said, they're

1298
01:48:40,083 --> 01:48:41,958
because they're isolated by depth or

1299
01:48:41,958 --> 01:48:45,125
rivers and they're just there where they

1300
01:48:45,125 --> 01:48:46,916
occur. They're isolated. So they can't

1301
01:48:46,916 --> 01:48:48,708
because they're so coastal. It's not like

1302
01:48:48,708 --> 01:48:51,166
they're swimming out at, you know, a

1303
01:48:51,166 --> 01:48:52,791
hundred meters or so. I think most of

1304
01:48:52,791 --> 01:48:54,416
them are less than 50 meters maximum

1305
01:48:54,416 --> 01:48:56,458
depth. So they don't. And when you got

1306
01:48:56,458 --> 01:48:57,708
when you're on an island, you got

1307
01:48:57,708 --> 01:49:00,083
hundreds of meters depth around you.

1308
01:49:00,083 --> 01:49:01,541
You're not likely to be able to cross

1309
01:49:01,541 --> 01:49:03,083
those areas unless you're

1310
01:49:03,083 --> 01:49:03,416
unless you unless you can.

1311
01:49:03,458 --> 01:49:06,291
You get up and swim and you know, these

1312
01:49:06,291 --> 01:49:07,833
things don't appear to be the type of

1313
01:49:07,833 --> 01:49:09,000
sharks are going to be doing any kind of

1314
01:49:09,000 --> 01:49:12,541
distance swimming. Yeah. And so so, yes,

1315
01:49:12,541 --> 01:49:13,541
I think you'd have to have something

1316
01:49:13,541 --> 01:49:14,833
about. Well, I'm sure that people do know

1317
01:49:14,833 --> 01:49:17,458
what the evolutionary history is of those

1318
01:49:17,458 --> 01:49:18,958
islands when they separated when they

1319
01:49:18,958 --> 01:49:21,250
broke up and you could probably with the

1320
01:49:21,250 --> 01:49:23,208
genetics. I call you look at a time

1321
01:49:23,208 --> 01:49:25,541
clock, you know, geologic time clock and

1322
01:49:25,541 --> 01:49:27,333
see when they developed and when these

1323
01:49:27,333 --> 01:49:30,750
things may have diverged and radiated

1324
01:49:30,750 --> 01:49:32,375
into different species.

1325
01:49:32,458 --> 01:49:36,250
But again, there's mainly the genetics,

1326
01:49:36,250 --> 01:49:37,791
the color and where they occur. That's

1327
01:49:37,791 --> 01:49:39,000
the only way you can tell them apart,

1328
01:49:39,625 --> 01:49:42,458
which is which is super interesting. It's

1329
01:49:42,458 --> 01:49:44,250
yeah, it's very fascinating. That'd be

1330
01:49:44,250 --> 01:49:46,958
that'd be an interest of mine for sure.

1331
01:49:46,958 --> 01:49:48,666
Just to find out what these things are

1332
01:49:48,666 --> 01:49:51,750
doing. Plus diving and snorkeling in in

1333
01:49:51,750 --> 01:49:53,791
Papua New Guinea is not is not half bad,

1334
01:49:53,791 --> 01:49:55,333
right? Like, I don't think it's a bad

1335
01:49:55,333 --> 01:49:57,041
place. I think we should do a show from

1336
01:49:57,041 --> 01:49:59,416
Papua New Guinea. We have to see. We'll

1337
01:49:59,416 --> 01:50:00,791
have to see if we get it. We have to see

1338
01:50:00,791 --> 01:50:01,416
if we get an invitation from somebody we know.

1339
01:50:01,458 --> 01:50:07,666
Yes. That would be that would be

1340
01:50:07,666 --> 01:50:09,875
phenomenal. All right. We'll wrap this up

1341
01:50:09,875 --> 01:50:11,041
because I know we can talk about this

1342
01:50:11,041 --> 01:50:13,166
forever. But just thank you so much for

1343
01:50:13,166 --> 01:50:16,333
indulging us in our curiosity and

1344
01:50:16,333 --> 01:50:19,333
learning about these beautiful sharks and

1345
01:50:19,333 --> 01:50:22,958
sharing your knack for discovering new

1346
01:50:22,958 --> 01:50:24,833
ones as well as your research. We really

1347
01:50:24,833 --> 01:50:26,458
appreciate it. Can't wait to have you

1348
01:50:26,458 --> 01:50:27,833
back on. We're going to share her social

1349
01:50:27,833 --> 01:50:28,416
media connections in the show notes. You can check that out. All right.

1350
01:50:28,416 --> 01:50:33,291
Ours will be there as well. Dave, if

1351
01:50:33,291 --> 01:50:34,916
people want to connect with you and see

1352
01:50:34,916 --> 01:50:36,541
all your stuff doing, you just let us

1353
01:50:36,541 --> 01:50:38,375
know what you're up to. Yeah, just a law

1354
01:50:38,375 --> 01:50:41,291
shark guy on Instagram and law shark eye

1355
01:50:41,291 --> 01:50:43,916
on YouTube. Check it. Check them out and

1356
01:50:43,916 --> 01:50:45,833
please follow both and you can always

1357
01:50:45,833 --> 01:50:48,166
message me that way. That's right. And

1358
01:50:48,166 --> 01:50:51,666
check out the your your series that we've

1359
01:50:51,666 --> 01:50:53,250
been working on together. Would you want

1360
01:50:53,250 --> 01:50:55,416
to name that? So people can check it out.

1361
01:50:55,416 --> 01:50:56,416
Series on the YouTube channel at law shark guy. The series is series on the show.

1362
01:50:56,416 --> 01:51:07,958
The series on the show. And please check

1363
01:51:07,958 --> 01:51:10,250
it out and please, please like. All

1364
01:51:10,250 --> 01:51:12,583
right, wonderful. This is great. So thank

1365
01:51:12,583 --> 01:51:14,166
you so much for joining us if you want.

1366
01:51:14,166 --> 01:51:15,750
If you're listening to this on YouTube,

1367
01:51:15,750 --> 01:51:17,458
please subscribe, you know, hit that

1368
01:51:17,458 --> 01:51:19,291
notification bell. Let us know what you

1369
01:51:19,291 --> 01:51:20,416
think about this interview in the

1370
01:51:20,416 --> 01:51:22,500
comments and about zebra sharks as well

1371
01:51:22,500 --> 01:51:24,208
as if you're listening to this on the

1372
01:51:24,208 --> 01:51:26,416
audio version, please follow on your favorite social media platforms.

1373
01:51:33,375 --> 01:51:34,500
And we'll talk to you next

1374
01:51:34,500 --> 01:51:35,500
time. And happy conservation.