She Spent Years Tracking Sharks in Crocodile-Infested Rivers

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We have a special episode for you today.

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We have Julia Constance who is back

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from her first episode where

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she talked about her career.

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Today she's talking about

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what she did for her PhD

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because yes, we are now

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talking to Dr. Julia Constance.

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She has been able to attain her PhD.

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She's talking about

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her experience with that,

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but also talking about

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what she's been up to

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and what she did over the

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PhD and where she worked

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because where she worked was

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really, really interesting.

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And you can catch a

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glimpse of what environment

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she's working in and the

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crocodiles that are there.

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In the latest episode of

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searching for lost sharks,

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we're going to be able to

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find out all about that.

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It's quite the story

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and let's start the show.

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Welcome back everybody to

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another episode of the Beyond

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Jaws podcast.

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I'm your co-host Andrew Lowen here with

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my co-host, Dr. David

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Ebert. Dave, are you ready?

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This is a really special

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episode, not only because we are

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announcing that Julia on the episode

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officially that Julia

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is Dr. Julia Constance,

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but you actually got to visit

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Julia in her study

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environment when you started to do your

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Searching for Lost Sharks episode, the

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latest one that's out

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on Lost Shark Guy YouTube channel.

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How exciting is this to not

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only see Julia get her PhD,

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but to be able to talk about the

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environment and you get to

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experience, you got to

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experience what kind of environment

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she was working.

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Yeah, I know it was great.

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It was really awesome.

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And yeah, I hope everybody checks out the

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episode Lost and Found,

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the River Shark story, the

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latest episode of Searching for

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Lost Sharks on my YouTube

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channel, Lost Shark Guy.

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Anyway, Julia is one of those

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young early career researchers,

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you know, I featured in the

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series here and we went out to

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look for the River Sharks and it is a

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story as I lay out a

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little more in the detail

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stuff, but it was really these

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lot, these, these River Sharks kind of

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laid help lay the foundation

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for the shark

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conservation back in the 80s.

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Yeah, and that's the star Sarah Fowler's

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involved Sarah Fowler and

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Leonard Campagno and others, but it

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really was these the group of

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Sharks that laid the foundation for this

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and it was great to work

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with Julia because she's one of those

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explorers who likes to go

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out and look for little known or

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basically lost sharks out there.

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And this was just a perfect perfect

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episode to have her come

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back on talk about her PhD where she's at

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now where she's going

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and talk about the episode and which is

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which is really wonderful.

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And I had a chance to see Julia just

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recently at the Sharks International

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and talk to you after. Hey Julia, welcome

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back to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you

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ready to continue our

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conversation about Sharks?

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Welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Right on there. Julia was on the podcast

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back in January of 2024 as a PhD

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candidate. And at the time she talked

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about the extinction

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of the Java Stingery,

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which was the first documented extinction

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of a marine species and it's listing on

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the IUC and Red List as being extinct,

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which I'd encourage you please to check

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out that episode. It's

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pretty extremely fascinating.

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Well, since we last spoke with Julia,

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she's completed her PhD on the natural

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mortality and movement ecology of the

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Northern Territories, Goliathis, a River

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Shark species for her PhD.

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And she covered both the spear nose or

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excuse me, the spear tooth River Shark as

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well as the Northern River Shark as well

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as explore looking at the long term

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movements and the environmental drivers

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of these movements for each species in

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the River Cishes of

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the Northern Territory.

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It was very cutting edge stuff because

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it's actually fascinating, fascinating

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information. So Julia also just recently

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returned from the Sharks International

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Conference where I also attended out in

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Colombo in Sri Lanka.

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And I also mentioned Julia is one of the

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featured researchers on the YouTube

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documentaries, Searching for Lost Sharks,

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Extincture Live on my YouTube channel at

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Lost Shark Guy. Please check it out and

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you find out more about her research on

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that in an episode there.

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And for that Julia, welcome to the show.

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Thanks for having me again.

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Great. So and congratulations.

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Thank you. So glad it's over.

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Yeah. So well, how does

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it feel now to be doctor?

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It's really good. I

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submitted in May 2025.

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Congratulations.

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I only just actually

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officially graduated last month.

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PhD.

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It's kind of been a

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long drawn out process.

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But now like having the actual graduation

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ceremony, it's like it's actually done.

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It's actually over. It's very cool.

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And it's a long journey.

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So most universities in Australia, it is

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like that. But my

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university there is no defense.

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I opted to do a

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presentation of my final results.

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So I did opt to do a

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seminar to the public.

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But then yeah, essentially they just send

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your thesis out to reviewers and then you

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get revision comments back.

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You revise your thesis and then the

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university looks whether or not to accept it.

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Yeah, cool. Cool. So before we get a little further here, why don't you just remind everyone like, a little bit of your background, Julia,

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where are you from in Australia and how'd

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you wind up in Darwin?

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Yeah, so I moved to Australia and I
went to Australia and I wanted

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to be a vet at the time.

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And then I decided that I really wanted

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to stay working with

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wildlife instead of being a vet.

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And so then I moved to Wollongong, which

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is just south of Sydney and did

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conservation biology as a degree.

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And then after that, I was kind of

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looking at what to do.

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But I knew that I wanted to move to

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northern Australia and ended up getting

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off of my owners here in Darwin.

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So I moved here.

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I was only supposed

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to be here for a year.

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It happens that way sometimes. So yeah,

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that's good. That's good. That's good

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with your stuff there.

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So so now that

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obviously you've been worked.

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Tell us a little bit about your study,

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which is a little more detail of what you

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did with the river sharks.

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And so essentially my research was using

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a very long established

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acoustic telemetry data set.

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So my supervisor Peter Klein set up an

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acoustic receiver array back in 2013 in a

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series of river systems

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here in the Northern Territory.

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And they tagged at the time around 200

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northern river sharks

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and speartooth sharks.

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And so I had for some of the animals up

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to 10 years of tracking data that I then

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took over the management of

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the acoustic receiver array.

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So I had this huge data set that I can

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then look at things like movement ecology

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for each species and each size class and

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each location and each season.

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And then also look at just the movements

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that these sharks were taking over long

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term periods and what were

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the potential drivers of these.

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And then during my PhD, I also got to go

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and just survey a new river system and

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found a new population of

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the speartooth shark as well.

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And I was like, oh, this is all very fun.

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I mean, I think I'm going
to go and do

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some tagging back in 20, 24, 24. Yeah.

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Almost two years ago.

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Yeah.

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Highlight experience for me if you can

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catch the episode with Julia and I

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because I'd my advisor Leonard Capone had

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been obsessed with river

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sharks back in the 1980s.

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So I kind of got an

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indoctrinated early on.

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But when you when you kind of started

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working out there or they were back up

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when they call them river

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sharks, they're not really river.

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They're not really river sharks in terms

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of like freshwater river. They're more

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like a saline or estuarine environment.

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Is that correct?

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Yeah. So we call them Yurihayline

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species, which means that they can occur

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anywhere from freshwater all the way

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through to marine and they do undertake

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part of their life history

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in non marine environments.

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So essentially for these species, the

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mums are coming into the

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river systems to give birth.

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The pups are then spending most of their

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juvenile years, even until they're adults

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in the river systems and then they're

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moving out into the marine systems.

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So in the early days of river shark

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research, they were considered a

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freshwater species. So similar to the

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freshwater obligate

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rays in South America.

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So we couldn't find them for a very long

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time because we were looking in the wrong

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spots because they were early early

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considered just completely freshwater.

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Now they do go into completely

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freshwater, but most of the time they're

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more in the brackish water.

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And they don't really move outside into

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the true marine environment

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very much either, do they?

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We have so once they matured, do they

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move out of the river systems?

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My tracking data found that there was

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beer to sharks staying in river systems

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until they were 16, 17 years old.

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So staying a lot later than we thought

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that they would. But then they move out

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into the marine system.

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And from there, we have no idea where

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they go because we've never tracked these

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animals in the marine system.

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So there was animals that would disappear

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for years at a time and just pop into the

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mouths of different river systems.

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So they are staying in the marine waters,

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but where they go and what kind of marine

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01:10:26,958 --> 01:10:28,083
habitats they use, we

280
01:10:28,083 --> 01:10:29,500
still don't know as adults.

281
01:10:29,500 --> 01:10:31,875
Oh, wow. So they don't and they rarely

282
01:10:31,875 --> 01:10:32,708
catch them in the marine

283
01:10:32,708 --> 01:10:33,666
environment. Is that correct?

284
01:10:34,791 --> 01:10:37,208
Yeah, they're really rarely recorded. I

285
01:10:37,208 --> 01:10:40,041
wonder if it's more of a identification

286
01:10:40,041 --> 01:10:43,375
issue potentially because of

287
01:10:43,375 --> 01:10:43,958
the high second dorsal fin.

288
01:10:43,958 --> 01:10:46,625
People may be thinking that they're lemon

289
01:10:46,625 --> 01:10:47,833
sharks when they're in the marine

290
01:10:47,833 --> 01:10:50,958
systems. I think it's still maybe they're

291
01:10:50,958 --> 01:10:54,083
being caught. Maybe they're not. But I

292
01:10:54,083 --> 01:10:54,708
think it's more of an

293
01:10:54,708 --> 01:10:55,750
identification issue.

294
01:10:56,291 --> 01:10:58,041
Yeah. So so really almost like a next

295
01:10:58,041 --> 01:11:01,458
step in this whole study, this next step

296
01:11:01,458 --> 01:11:02,708
is also if you actually see what they're

297
01:11:02,708 --> 01:11:03,541
doing in the marine in

298
01:11:03,541 --> 01:11:03,958
the marine environment.

299
01:11:04,958 --> 01:11:07,708
Yeah, that would be the dream for me. I

300
01:11:07,708 --> 01:11:10,458
did apply for some funding during my PhD

301
01:11:10,458 --> 01:11:12,625
to get some satellite tags going to track

302
01:11:12,625 --> 01:11:15,291
the adults. But that would be the dream

303
01:11:15,291 --> 01:11:17,625
next step if I was to find something.

304
01:11:18,375 --> 01:11:20,541
And how difficult do you think it'd be to

305
01:11:20,541 --> 01:11:21,625
go to try to catch them

306
01:11:21,625 --> 01:11:22,250
in the marine environment?

307
01:11:24,166 --> 01:11:26,166
I think it's it's a lot harder when

308
01:11:26,166 --> 01:11:28,375
you're in the river systems. There's

309
01:11:28,375 --> 01:11:30,541
obviously much fewer species that you're

310
01:11:30,541 --> 01:11:32,875
going to interact with. So your chances

311
01:11:32,875 --> 01:11:34,833
of catching the river sharks that you're

312
01:11:34,833 --> 01:11:35,791
targeting is a lot higher.

313
01:11:36,333 --> 01:11:38,083
But then in the marine system, you've got

314
01:11:38,083 --> 01:11:40,166
all these other species that you're

315
01:11:40,166 --> 01:11:41,166
potentially going to be catching as

316
01:11:41,166 --> 01:11:42,833
bycatch that are going to be much more

317
01:11:42,833 --> 01:11:46,000
common. So yeah, definitely targeting

318
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:47,625
them in the marine system. It's going to

319
01:11:47,625 --> 01:11:48,333
be a little more challenging.

320
01:11:49,250 --> 01:11:52,166
Yeah, okay. Yeah. So so I mean, it's kind

321
01:11:52,166 --> 01:11:54,000
of fascinating that they live in such

322
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:56,000
because they live in such a narrow at

323
01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:57,750
least the early stage of their life

324
01:11:57,750 --> 01:11:59,083
history. They live in such a narrow

325
01:11:59,083 --> 01:12:02,250
environment that if those if that

326
01:12:02,250 --> 01:12:05,416
habitats impacted, it would really impact

327
01:12:05,416 --> 01:12:06,958
basically the entire species, correct?

328
01:12:07,958 --> 01:12:11,625
Yeah, so absolutely completely niche kind

329
01:12:11,625 --> 01:12:14,416
of habitat that they're going for. And

330
01:12:14,416 --> 01:12:16,083
their movements are completely different

331
01:12:16,083 --> 01:12:18,041
to other species that are occurring in

332
01:12:18,041 --> 01:12:21,041
these kinds of habitats. So they're

333
01:12:21,041 --> 01:12:22,708
really weird and that they've just pushed

334
01:12:22,708 --> 01:12:23,666
themselves into these

335
01:12:23,666 --> 01:12:24,625
really narrow spaces.

336
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:27,250
And as you say, if we start to mess with

337
01:12:27,250 --> 01:12:29,416
these river systems start to change their

338
01:12:29,416 --> 01:12:31,708
habitat, they're not really going to have

339
01:12:31,708 --> 01:12:33,500
anywhere to go. And there's not a lot of

340
01:12:33,500 --> 01:12:36,458
movement between rivers. So we lose the

341
01:12:36,458 --> 01:12:38,333
population in one river, then they're

342
01:12:38,333 --> 01:12:39,708
probably going to not come back.

343
01:12:39,708 --> 01:12:42,875
That's gone. And like how many how many

344
01:12:42,875 --> 01:12:46,708
river systems are up to like 12 now river

345
01:12:46,708 --> 01:12:47,625
systems for these sharks?

346
01:12:48,458 --> 01:12:50,875
Well, I wouldn't be able to tell you off

347
01:12:50,875 --> 01:12:53,500
the top of my head. Essentially, they're

348
01:12:53,500 --> 01:12:55,500
not found in every river system, as you

349
01:12:55,500 --> 01:12:57,500
say, I wouldn't be able to tell you the

350
01:12:57,500 --> 01:12:59,458
count of it off the top of my head. But

351
01:12:59,458 --> 01:13:01,291
yeah, certainly less than 20.

352
01:13:02,083 --> 01:13:04,875
Less than 20 river systems. It's all

353
01:13:04,875 --> 01:13:05,583
strictly up in the

354
01:13:05,583 --> 01:13:06,916
Northern Territory, pretty much.

355
01:13:08,166 --> 01:13:11,500
So the spear to shark is found in one

356
01:13:11,500 --> 01:13:13,375
river system in Queensland, and then they

357
01:13:13,375 --> 01:13:14,708
found across the Northern Territory and

358
01:13:14,708 --> 01:13:19,625
into Western Australia. And then the

359
01:13:19,625 --> 01:13:22,333
Northern River shark is found just in the

360
01:13:22,333 --> 01:13:23,708
Northern Territory in Western Australia.

361
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:25,791
And then both species are also found in

362
01:13:25,791 --> 01:13:27,666
Southern Papua New Guinea as well.

363
01:13:28,500 --> 01:13:31,458
Okay. And do they the species tend to do

364
01:13:31,458 --> 01:13:32,500
you find them co-occurring

365
01:13:32,500 --> 01:13:33,458
in the same river system?

366
01:13:34,791 --> 01:13:36,333
So they do co-occur in some river

367
01:13:36,333 --> 01:13:38,250
systems. Some river systems only have the

368
01:13:38,250 --> 01:13:41,125
one species, but where they do co-occur,

369
01:13:41,125 --> 01:13:42,750
you'll generally find that there's a

370
01:13:42,750 --> 01:13:44,083
slightly more populous

371
01:13:44,083 --> 01:13:45,875
species in that river system.

372
01:13:46,750 --> 01:13:48,291
Okay. So for example, in Adelaide River,

373
01:13:48,291 --> 01:13:50,458
where we went fishing, the more the more

374
01:13:50,458 --> 01:13:51,458
dominant species there

375
01:13:51,458 --> 01:13:52,458
is the spear to shark.

376
01:13:53,500 --> 01:13:55,625
And some of the ones as some of the other

377
01:13:55,625 --> 01:13:57,208
ones are the Northern spear to dominate

378
01:13:57,208 --> 01:13:57,958
and some of the other ones?

379
01:13:57,958 --> 01:14:00,500
Yeah, so the Northern River shark is the

380
01:14:00,500 --> 01:14:02,000
more dominant species in the South

381
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:03,458
Alligator River, for example.

382
01:14:03,791 --> 01:14:05,500
Okay. Okay. I just want to let you know,

383
01:14:05,500 --> 01:14:07,041
Andrew lost his internet, but we're still

384
01:14:07,041 --> 01:14:08,458
recording. So we'll just keep on it.

385
01:14:08,458 --> 01:14:09,333
We'll just keep talking

386
01:14:09,333 --> 01:14:11,583
until he gets back on. Okay.

387
01:14:12,708 --> 01:14:14,166
So yeah, it looks like record. Anyway,

388
01:14:14,333 --> 01:14:16,791
okay, he'll edit that out. Anyway, okay.

389
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:19,416
I mean, this is kind of fascinating to me

390
01:14:19,416 --> 01:14:21,250
and that these things are so they have

391
01:14:21,250 --> 01:14:22,958
such a narrow habitat.

392
01:14:22,958 --> 01:14:24,750
It reminds me a little bit of like the

393
01:14:24,750 --> 01:14:27,791
soft fish, which, you know, use mangroves

394
01:14:27,791 --> 01:14:29,958
in a coastal area and a lot of areas are

395
01:14:29,958 --> 01:14:31,916
habitats just been destroyed.

396
01:14:33,208 --> 01:14:35,291
And so that which impacts our life cycle.

397
01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:39,208
And so you got this other this thing. I

398
01:14:39,208 --> 01:14:40,875
mean, in Australia, they're probably the

399
01:14:40,875 --> 01:14:44,083
Northern spear tooth and the spear tooth

400
01:14:44,083 --> 01:14:46,083
are probably in pretty good

401
01:14:46,083 --> 01:14:47,375
shape because it's in Australia.

402
01:14:47,625 --> 01:14:49,125
But when you go to like, say, Papua New

403
01:14:49,125 --> 01:14:51,500
Guinea or some of the other countries

404
01:14:51,500 --> 01:14:53,625
that say don't have as stringent a

405
01:14:53,625 --> 01:14:58,000
conservation regulations that you kind of

406
01:14:58,000 --> 01:14:59,958
concern that they might be impacted more.

407
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:04,000
Yeah, so northern Australia is definitely

408
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:07,000
a really good area for these kinds of

409
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:08,875
threatened species. We still have

410
01:15:08,875 --> 01:15:11,333
concerns for these species. For example,

411
01:15:11,333 --> 01:15:12,875
in the Northern Territory, there's a lot

412
01:15:12,875 --> 01:15:16,625
of water resource development that the

413
01:15:16,625 --> 01:15:17,958
government is wanting to do.

414
01:15:17,958 --> 01:15:20,041
So for example, to increase the amount of

415
01:15:20,041 --> 01:15:21,833
agriculture and mining that happens in

416
01:15:21,833 --> 01:15:24,041
the Northern Territory. So, for example,

417
01:15:24,041 --> 01:15:25,666
the Adelaide River, which is the spear

418
01:15:25,666 --> 01:15:28,875
tooth sharks most important river system

419
01:15:28,875 --> 01:15:31,500
in the world, largest population of spear

420
01:15:31,500 --> 01:15:32,833
tooth sharks globally there.

421
01:15:33,625 --> 01:15:35,750
They're essentially wanting to capture

422
01:15:35,750 --> 01:15:38,208
the freshwater flows that occur there

423
01:15:38,208 --> 01:15:40,666
during the wet season and store them off

424
01:15:40,666 --> 01:15:41,833
stream in an off

425
01:15:41,833 --> 01:15:43,333
stream water storage unit.

426
01:15:44,083 --> 01:15:45,875
So essentially, that's going to change

427
01:15:45,875 --> 01:15:49,166
the dynamics of the flow of that river.

428
01:15:49,666 --> 01:15:51,375
And that could potentially impact the

429
01:15:51,375 --> 01:15:54,625
movements of these species, but it's also

430
01:15:54,625 --> 01:15:56,208
going to cause cascading effects.

431
01:15:56,875 --> 01:15:59,125
So for example, a lot of the fish species

432
01:15:59,125 --> 01:16:00,583
that the spear tooth shark and the

433
01:16:00,583 --> 01:16:02,583
northern river shark are going to be

434
01:16:02,583 --> 01:16:04,833
consuming in that river system, their

435
01:16:04,833 --> 01:16:07,041
life cycles are highly, highly dependent

436
01:16:07,041 --> 01:16:07,958
on that freshwater flow.

437
01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:11,208
So as soon as we impact those species, we

438
01:16:11,208 --> 01:16:15,000
then also impact the prey species of our

439
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:17,541
river sharks as well. So at the moment,

440
01:16:18,041 --> 01:16:20,000
certainly compared to, for example, the

441
01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:22,916
Ganges River shark in the rest of Asia,

442
01:16:23,541 --> 01:16:24,708
our river sharks in

443
01:16:24,708 --> 01:16:26,208
Australia are doing really well.

444
01:16:26,958 --> 01:16:30,666
But we are looking at potential concerns.

445
01:16:31,625 --> 01:16:33,000
Really? So outside Australia, though,

446
01:16:33,125 --> 01:16:34,250
really, Papua New Guinea is the only

447
01:16:34,250 --> 01:16:35,333
place you find either of

448
01:16:35,333 --> 01:16:35,958
these species, is that correct?

449
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:40,083
Yeah, so these two species that I worked

450
01:16:40,083 --> 01:16:42,625
on there endemic to northern Australia

451
01:16:42,625 --> 01:16:43,958
and southern Papua New Guinea.

452
01:16:44,666 --> 01:16:47,541
So the Ganges shark, which I know you

453
01:16:47,541 --> 01:16:49,041
didn't work on, but you and I had an

454
01:16:49,041 --> 01:16:50,958
opportunity to see when we were in

455
01:16:50,958 --> 01:16:56,375
Jakarta, it was that's one that how would

456
01:16:56,375 --> 01:16:59,000
you characterize that as being critically

457
01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:00,375
endangered on its way

458
01:17:00,375 --> 01:17:01,500
to potentially extinct?

459
01:17:02,958 --> 01:17:04,958
Yes, so that species is listed as

460
01:17:04,958 --> 01:17:07,500
critically endangered, very, very rare to

461
01:17:07,500 --> 01:17:09,708
find records of it still occurring

462
01:17:09,708 --> 01:17:12,583
throughout its range. And we pretty much

463
01:17:12,583 --> 01:17:14,500
know nothing about it. We draw a lot of

464
01:17:14,500 --> 01:17:16,500
conclusions about potentially its life

465
01:17:16,500 --> 01:17:19,791
history and things from our

466
01:17:19,791 --> 01:17:22,083
northern Australian species.

467
01:17:22,958 --> 01:17:24,791
But it's one of those things that we it's

468
01:17:24,791 --> 01:17:26,833
so hard to find because it's so, so, so

469
01:17:26,833 --> 01:17:31,666
rare and so threatened now that I hold a

470
01:17:31,666 --> 01:17:33,333
lot of concerns for it personally.

471
01:17:33,833 --> 01:17:36,666
Yeah. And there's absolutely there's

472
01:17:36,666 --> 01:17:38,083
absolutely no records of it in Australia

473
01:17:38,083 --> 01:17:40,000
at all. It's just it does not it doesn't

474
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:42,208
get very OK. Yeah, that's that's the one

475
01:17:42,208 --> 01:17:45,000
I really think that's that really has

476
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:47,625
from all the stuff I've I've known over

477
01:17:47,625 --> 01:17:49,791
the years and talking with Leonard Kapano

478
01:17:49,791 --> 01:17:50,625
and then talking to

479
01:17:50,625 --> 01:17:51,958
you and Pete and Fami.

480
01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:54,166
And Fami that seems to be the one that's

481
01:17:54,166 --> 01:17:57,000
really a lot of concern because we're

482
01:17:57,000 --> 01:17:59,125
we're used to range from and to now it's

483
01:17:59,125 --> 01:18:01,333
just it's just gone down quite a quite a

484
01:18:01,333 --> 01:18:05,166
bit in terms of its distribution and

485
01:18:05,166 --> 01:18:08,500
everything like and everything. So so I

486
01:18:08,500 --> 01:18:10,375
got so I got asked. So I got to ask you

487
01:18:10,375 --> 01:18:13,708
because I know it was a fascinating for

488
01:18:13,708 --> 01:18:16,083
me, fascination for me working in a

489
01:18:16,083 --> 01:18:17,958
habitat and some of the unforeseen things

490
01:18:17,958 --> 01:18:20,041
is saltwater crocodiles.

491
01:18:21,958 --> 01:18:23,958
I think they go out to another

492
01:18:23,958 --> 01:18:25,666
environments are working around just just

493
01:18:25,666 --> 01:18:27,166
to set the story up here for you and I'll

494
01:18:27,166 --> 01:18:29,583
turn it over to you Julia. But so when

495
01:18:29,583 --> 01:18:30,541
you go out there, you're working with

496
01:18:30,541 --> 01:18:32,208
sharks and you already have real people

497
01:18:32,208 --> 01:18:35,000
realize that's kind of a known hazard,

498
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:35,583
especially if you're

499
01:18:35,583 --> 01:18:36,750
working large toothy sharks.

500
01:18:37,666 --> 01:18:38,500
But you get out there and you start

501
01:18:38,500 --> 01:18:40,666
working with large saltwater crocodiles

502
01:18:40,666 --> 01:18:43,375
and I'm talking like five meters or more

503
01:18:43,375 --> 01:18:44,375
doesn't have to be five

504
01:18:44,375 --> 01:18:45,666
meters. It could be two meters.

505
01:18:47,458 --> 01:18:49,666
So, Julia, tell us tell us tell everybody

506
01:18:49,666 --> 01:18:50,750
out here what that's like.

507
01:18:52,666 --> 01:18:54,166
Look, it's a very, very different.

508
01:18:56,958 --> 01:18:59,125
It's a really, really different

509
01:18:59,125 --> 01:19:01,541
environment that I work on here.

510
01:19:02,833 --> 01:19:05,250
So, for example, these river sharks,

511
01:19:05,458 --> 01:19:08,208
their favorite favorite water is

512
01:19:08,208 --> 01:19:10,958
chocolate milk colored muddy, muddy,

513
01:19:10,958 --> 01:19:14,583
turbid water and pretty much their ideal

514
01:19:14,583 --> 01:19:15,958
habitats is always a

515
01:19:16,000 --> 01:19:18,916
overlapping with saltwater crocodiles.

516
01:19:19,875 --> 01:19:22,208
As, as Dave said, these, this is a

517
01:19:22,208 --> 01:19:25,083
really, really big species. The biggest

518
01:19:25,083 --> 01:19:28,375
recorded saltwater crocodile was 6.14

519
01:19:28,375 --> 01:19:31,583
meters. So we're talking like huge, huge.

520
01:19:32,250 --> 01:19:32,708
And they're really,

521
01:19:32,708 --> 01:19:34,416
really aggressive. Yeah.

522
01:19:36,166 --> 01:19:40,875
And so generally, when I'm fishing for

523
01:19:40,875 --> 01:19:42,708
sharks, for example, I've got to be quite

524
01:19:42,958 --> 01:19:44,166
careful. I've got to be quite careful. I've got to be quite careful. I've got to be quite careful. I've got to be quite careful. I've got to be quite careful. I've got to be quite careful.

525
01:19:44,166 --> 01:19:45,291
You don't want to be drawing too much

526
01:19:45,291 --> 01:19:47,041
attention to what you're doing because

527
01:19:47,041 --> 01:19:48,500
these saltwater crocodiles are

528
01:19:48,500 --> 01:19:51,375
intrinsically just very, very curious. So

529
01:19:51,375 --> 01:19:53,208
for example, if I'm fighting a freshwater

530
01:19:53,208 --> 01:19:55,958
whip ray for a very long time, they you

531
01:19:55,958 --> 01:19:57,625
will see crocodiles popping up all over

532
01:19:57,625 --> 01:19:59,125
the place having a look and starting to

533
01:19:59,125 --> 01:20:00,208
come closer and be like,

534
01:20:00,208 --> 01:20:01,291
what are you doing over there?

535
01:20:09,958 --> 01:20:12,333
Is it like you mentioned after is it like

536
01:20:12,333 --> 01:20:13,958
with in terms of how you fish, it's like

537
01:20:13,958 --> 01:20:15,500
a rod and reel of how you catch these

538
01:20:15,500 --> 01:20:18,416
sharks, right? That's what you mean by it

539
01:20:18,416 --> 01:20:19,750
can't be thrashing around. You got to be

540
01:20:19,750 --> 01:20:22,000
quiet in that case. But like, or is it

541
01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:23,750
quiet as in just even talking, you have

542
01:20:23,750 --> 01:20:24,958
to kind of whisper around.

543
01:20:24,958 --> 01:20:26,958
No. So, okay.

544
01:20:28,958 --> 01:20:32,416
As much as these crocodiles are extremely

545
01:20:32,416 --> 01:20:35,291
dangerous. They are still wary of people.

546
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:38,458
So in the 1970s in northern Australia, we

547
01:20:38,458 --> 01:20:41,375
got down to 3000 saltwater crocodiles

548
01:20:41,375 --> 01:20:43,083
across all of northern Australia because

549
01:20:43,083 --> 01:20:44,458
we were absolutely shooting

550
01:20:44,458 --> 01:20:45,958
them almost to extinction.

551
01:20:45,958 --> 01:20:50,083
And a lot of the crocodiles that survived

552
01:20:50,083 --> 01:20:51,500
that period are still going because

553
01:20:51,500 --> 01:20:54,041
they're very long lived. So there is like

554
01:20:54,041 --> 01:20:57,375
this intrinsic fear of people. And it's

555
01:20:57,375 --> 01:20:59,416
probably a memory of being shot at as

556
01:20:59,416 --> 01:21:01,708
well. So these crocodiles are generally

557
01:21:01,708 --> 01:21:04,000
not too cheeky unless you've had, you

558
01:21:04,000 --> 01:21:07,250
know, recreational fishes trying to feed

559
01:21:07,250 --> 01:21:08,958
them and do silly things like that.

560
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:12,833
So generally, it's not generally not

561
01:21:12,833 --> 01:21:14,625
having to be too concerned about them.

562
01:21:14,875 --> 01:21:16,625
It's more of like you've just got to be

563
01:21:16,625 --> 01:21:19,333
really watching what's happening around

564
01:21:19,333 --> 01:21:22,083
you and paying attention, not putting

565
01:21:22,083 --> 01:21:24,750
your hands in the water. And it's more of

566
01:21:24,750 --> 01:21:26,125
just a croc awareness,

567
01:21:26,416 --> 01:21:27,500
croc safety practice.

568
01:21:28,750 --> 01:21:31,041
And that and that includes I can tell you

569
01:21:31,041 --> 01:21:32,916
just to set this story up because Julia,

570
01:21:32,916 --> 01:21:34,625
we went out, we spent time in northern

571
01:21:34,625 --> 01:21:36,041
Australia and then Julia and I went to

572
01:21:36,041 --> 01:21:38,250
Timor Lesty, which will touch on in just

573
01:21:38,250 --> 01:21:39,750
a moment, which has nothing to do with

574
01:21:39,750 --> 01:21:40,791
river sharks there but

575
01:21:41,958 --> 01:21:44,041
when we went out, when I went out there,

576
01:21:44,041 --> 01:21:46,541
like because this was in Australia, they

577
01:21:46,541 --> 01:21:48,791
go over the safety, the safety protocol

578
01:21:48,791 --> 01:21:51,375
for being on the on the river or go just

579
01:21:51,375 --> 01:21:53,125
watching the boat even to go out with the

580
01:21:53,125 --> 01:21:53,958
saltwater crocodile.

581
01:21:53,958 --> 01:21:56,166
I was like, don't walk down to the dock,

582
01:21:56,166 --> 01:21:58,958
you wait on the boat. You know, you're

583
01:21:58,958 --> 01:22:00,208
always looking around because these

584
01:22:00,208 --> 01:22:02,083
things are really sneaky as well. They

585
01:22:02,083 --> 01:22:03,791
can be very they can like pop up like

586
01:22:03,791 --> 01:22:04,916
pretty close to you.

587
01:22:05,166 --> 01:22:06,500
And like, you don't even you don't sit at

588
01:22:06,500 --> 01:22:08,041
the edge of the boat when you're out when

589
01:22:08,041 --> 01:22:09,291
you go out in the river because one of

590
01:22:09,291 --> 01:22:11,208
them could literally lunge out of the

591
01:22:11,208 --> 01:22:12,166
water and snatch you right

592
01:22:12,166 --> 01:22:13,791
off the boat pretty quickly.

593
01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:16,166
So you go over all this stuff, all of

594
01:22:16,166 --> 01:22:18,000
this protocol and stuff, which is good.

595
01:22:18,000 --> 01:22:20,000
It's good safety measure. You know,

596
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:23,166
someone like me, I, you know, I had a

597
01:22:23,166 --> 01:22:24,333
little experience in Africa with

598
01:22:24,333 --> 01:22:25,791
crocodiles, but this was

599
01:22:25,791 --> 01:22:27,541
kind of very different setting.

600
01:22:28,083 --> 01:22:29,583
So you go through, which is very good.

601
01:22:29,583 --> 01:22:30,791
You have all these protocols and stuff.

602
01:22:31,291 --> 01:22:33,208
When Julia and I went to Timor Lesty, you

603
01:22:33,208 --> 01:22:34,833
don't have any such protocols and that

604
01:22:34,833 --> 01:22:36,958
there and there's freaking saltwater

605
01:22:36,958 --> 01:22:39,500
crocodiles everywhere in Timor Lesty

606
01:22:40,375 --> 01:22:42,250
to where you don't step off the road at

607
01:22:42,250 --> 01:22:44,458
all because you might get snack. You

608
01:22:44,458 --> 01:22:45,750
might become a snack for saltwater

609
01:22:45,750 --> 01:22:48,000
crocodile there. And there's plenty of

610
01:22:48,000 --> 01:22:50,958
them there. So anyway, yeah, I think

611
01:22:50,958 --> 01:22:52,000
that's the thing about the Northern

612
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:54,541
Territory is we have the largest

613
01:22:54,541 --> 01:22:56,375
saltwater crocodile

614
01:22:56,375 --> 01:22:56,958
population on the planet.

615
01:22:56,958 --> 01:22:59,375
We're up to about 100,000 saltwater

616
01:22:59,375 --> 01:23:02,375
crocodiles over two meters long just in

617
01:23:02,375 --> 01:23:04,041
the Northern Territory. So it's a

618
01:23:04,041 --> 01:23:06,208
massive, massive population. But we have

619
01:23:06,208 --> 01:23:08,041
very, very few deaths. It's like less

620
01:23:08,041 --> 01:23:09,875
than one person per year, if that.

621
01:23:10,541 --> 01:23:12,916
So I think that the thing about here is

622
01:23:12,916 --> 01:23:15,500
that we've just had this just crocodile

623
01:23:15,500 --> 01:23:17,541
safety just drummed into us and it's just

624
01:23:17,541 --> 01:23:20,041
how we behave now. Like for me, when I go

625
01:23:20,041 --> 01:23:22,375
and visit my family on the east coast of

626
01:23:22,375 --> 01:23:24,791
Australia, I'll see my niece standing

627
01:23:24,791 --> 01:23:24,958
next to a river system.

628
01:23:24,958 --> 01:23:27,166
And I'm like, what are you doing? Why are

629
01:23:27,166 --> 01:23:29,208
you standing so close to the water? But

630
01:23:29,208 --> 01:23:31,333
it's just it just becomes this inherent

631
01:23:31,333 --> 01:23:34,791
inherent part of how you behave. But

632
01:23:34,791 --> 01:23:36,208
yeah, like even just working with the

633
01:23:36,208 --> 01:23:39,416
crocodiles, you look at other people that

634
01:23:39,416 --> 01:23:41,125
have done acoustic telemetry research

635
01:23:41,125 --> 01:23:42,833
elsewhere in the world and they get to

636
01:23:42,833 --> 01:23:44,958
dive into this crystal clear blue water

637
01:23:44,958 --> 01:23:46,000
and just go and retrieve

638
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:47,958
their acoustic receivers.

639
01:23:47,958 --> 01:23:51,125
For me, as I said, the water is like

640
01:23:51,125 --> 01:23:52,666
chocolate milk colored, there's

641
01:23:52,666 --> 01:23:55,500
crocodiles. So what I had to do to

642
01:23:55,500 --> 01:23:57,458
retrieve my acoustic receivers was

643
01:23:57,458 --> 01:23:59,000
actually just throw a hook over the side

644
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:01,083
of the boat and turn around in circles

645
01:24:01,083 --> 01:24:03,500
over your location, potentially for hours

646
01:24:03,500 --> 01:24:05,625
depending on how buried it's become after

647
01:24:05,625 --> 01:24:06,666
the last wet season.

648
01:24:07,166 --> 01:24:09,000
So it really just changes your whole

649
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:09,791
practice and the whole

650
01:24:09,791 --> 01:24:11,208
way that you do science.

651
01:24:12,208 --> 01:24:15,458
Yeah, when you when you tell you know,

652
01:24:15,458 --> 01:24:17,291
even you mentioned it, like a lot of

653
01:24:17,291 --> 01:24:19,000
people when you see them studying sharks,

654
01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:20,250
they're in crystal clear waters, it's

655
01:24:20,250 --> 01:24:21,416
beautiful, they can dive in and

656
01:24:21,416 --> 01:24:23,041
everything. You had the opposite.

657
01:24:23,583 --> 01:24:25,666
Because of this, this chocolate milk kind

658
01:24:25,666 --> 01:24:27,833
of water, this muddy kind of water. When

659
01:24:27,833 --> 01:24:30,083
you describe to people what you do, like

660
01:24:30,083 --> 01:24:32,000
non scientists, even other scientists, I

661
01:24:32,000 --> 01:24:33,666
guess, when you describe to people what

662
01:24:33,666 --> 01:24:36,416
to do, they just be like, like, why, why

663
01:24:36,416 --> 01:24:38,416
would you choose to study something like

664
01:24:38,416 --> 01:24:40,000
that in an area where

665
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:41,958
you're not in crystal blue water?

666
01:24:41,958 --> 01:24:44,083
It's like, what is it about these river

667
01:24:44,083 --> 01:24:46,666
sharks that makes it so interesting for

668
01:24:46,666 --> 01:24:49,791
you to, you know, put yourself in a

669
01:24:49,791 --> 01:24:52,500
system where you're probably more apt to

670
01:24:52,500 --> 01:24:55,833
be in danger or, you know, once false

671
01:24:55,833 --> 01:24:57,291
move, you know, like, if you're not

672
01:24:57,291 --> 01:24:59,916
paying attention, could put you in some

673
01:24:59,916 --> 01:25:01,375
sort of harm and you're working like

674
01:25:01,375 --> 01:25:03,291
chocolate milk kind of water.

675
01:25:03,291 --> 01:25:04,500
Like, what is it that

676
01:25:04,500 --> 01:25:05,958
makes you want to do that?

677
01:25:06,583 --> 01:25:08,708
I find it absolutely fascinating. And I

678
01:25:08,708 --> 01:25:10,875
think that the thing about working here

679
01:25:10,875 --> 01:25:13,833
is that it is just, it's like literally

680
01:25:13,833 --> 01:25:15,458
nowhere else on the planet, the places

681
01:25:15,458 --> 01:25:19,083
that I get to go and work places that

682
01:25:19,083 --> 01:25:20,958
very, very, very few people in the world

683
01:25:20,958 --> 01:25:22,416
are ever going to be able to visit,

684
01:25:22,416 --> 01:25:23,958
especially in a more remote locations.

685
01:25:24,000 --> 01:25:26,833
And these areas have been almost

686
01:25:26,833 --> 01:25:29,416
untouched. So like everywhere else, you

687
01:25:29,416 --> 01:25:31,541
know, for example, where the Gandy's

688
01:25:31,541 --> 01:25:33,458
River shark is, for example, I've been

689
01:25:33,458 --> 01:25:35,041
completely modified, completely

690
01:25:35,041 --> 01:25:36,000
overfished, completely

691
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:37,666
impacted by human beings.

692
01:25:37,958 --> 01:25:40,916
But I'm going to river systems where you

693
01:25:40,916 --> 01:25:43,208
might have 50, 50 people that go and

694
01:25:43,208 --> 01:25:45,333
visit there to go fishing recreationally

695
01:25:45,333 --> 01:25:47,875
in a year. And there's no commercial

696
01:25:47,875 --> 01:25:49,083
fishing and river systems

697
01:25:49,083 --> 01:25:49,916
in the Northern Territory.

698
01:25:50,000 --> 01:25:52,000
Some river systems they set up just

699
01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:54,666
outside the mouth. But essentially, these

700
01:25:54,666 --> 01:25:57,000
systems are like nowhere else in the

701
01:25:57,000 --> 01:25:59,250
world. And so it's kind of when people

702
01:25:59,250 --> 01:26:01,083
ask me about what I do, I can kind of

703
01:26:01,083 --> 01:26:03,916
give them an insight about systems that

704
01:26:03,916 --> 01:26:05,333
they're never going to get to experience

705
01:26:05,333 --> 01:26:07,666
and that very, very, very few people ever

706
01:26:07,666 --> 01:26:08,500
do get to experience.

707
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:11,416
Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, I mean, it's like

708
01:26:11,416 --> 01:26:13,125
it's like I always tell people ask me

709
01:26:13,125 --> 01:26:15,291
about like looking for lost sharks. And I

710
01:26:15,291 --> 01:26:16,583
just tell them like it's going where most

711
01:26:16,583 --> 01:26:19,000
people won't go. And like where Julia

712
01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:22,041
works, I can affirm that like a lot of

713
01:26:22,041 --> 01:26:24,041
people won't go to the areas where she's

714
01:26:24,041 --> 01:26:26,125
working because it's not, it's not, I

715
01:26:26,125 --> 01:26:27,375
don't say it's not pleasant. I thought it

716
01:26:27,375 --> 01:26:28,625
was kind of cool myself, but

717
01:26:28,958 --> 01:26:30,458
I love it. I think it's amazing. Yeah,

718
01:26:30,708 --> 01:26:32,375
you get into it, you get really excited

719
01:26:32,375 --> 01:26:34,541
about it. But but a lot of people won't

720
01:26:34,541 --> 01:26:36,041
go there just because it's it's not a

721
01:26:36,041 --> 01:26:37,708
real pleasant area to have to go work.

722
01:26:37,708 --> 01:26:40,208
And, you know, you could get wildlife

723
01:26:40,208 --> 01:26:41,208
there that might eat you.

724
01:26:41,958 --> 01:26:43,541
And you've definitely got to be a certain

725
01:26:43,541 --> 01:26:46,583
type of person. So, for example, one of

726
01:26:46,583 --> 01:26:48,541
the places that I love to work, I'm

727
01:26:48,541 --> 01:26:50,916
literally just camping on a on a

728
01:26:50,916 --> 01:26:52,500
floodplain. There's no shade, there's no

729
01:26:52,500 --> 01:26:53,291
toilets. I'm usually

730
01:26:53,291 --> 01:26:54,250
the only woman around.

731
01:26:54,958 --> 01:26:57,000
And it's one of my favorite places in the

732
01:26:57,000 --> 01:26:59,291
whole world. And people are like, that

733
01:26:59,291 --> 01:27:01,791
place isn't very nice. And I'm like, I

734
01:27:01,791 --> 01:27:04,541
could not like it's a place that I fly

735
01:27:04,541 --> 01:27:07,083
over. I flew over it on Friday last week.

736
01:27:07,083 --> 01:27:08,583
And I'm like there. And I'm

737
01:27:08,583 --> 01:27:09,875
like, I just want to be there.

738
01:27:11,083 --> 01:27:12,333
So I guess you've got to be a certain

739
01:27:12,333 --> 01:27:14,500
type of person as well. A hundred

740
01:27:14,500 --> 01:27:16,375
percent. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Definitely.

741
01:27:16,375 --> 01:27:18,083
Definitely takes a certain personality to

742
01:27:18,083 --> 01:27:20,041
be able to do that. And I

743
01:27:20,041 --> 01:27:20,958
just got one more thing.

744
01:27:20,958 --> 01:27:22,916
One more thing on the crocodiles is Julia

745
01:27:22,916 --> 01:27:24,500
mentioned you have whatever how many how

746
01:27:24,500 --> 01:27:26,500
many attacks you have maybe a year in the

747
01:27:26,500 --> 01:27:27,541
Northern Territory. Less

748
01:27:27,541 --> 01:27:29,333
than one. That's very, very.

749
01:27:30,250 --> 01:27:31,875
And I get a contrast that we went the

750
01:27:31,875 --> 01:27:33,416
team or less in like I think every

751
01:27:33,416 --> 01:27:34,833
village we went to Julia, like somebody

752
01:27:34,833 --> 01:27:37,458
got taken out like in the last few days

753
01:27:37,458 --> 01:27:40,000
or last week or I mean every village had

754
01:27:40,000 --> 01:27:41,333
a story about somebody just getting

755
01:27:41,333 --> 01:27:43,666
whacked within the within a few days.

756
01:27:43,958 --> 01:27:45,916
And it's just you ask him like how many

757
01:27:45,916 --> 01:27:47,541
people get taken a year by the crocodiles

758
01:27:47,541 --> 01:27:49,916
and they're like, well, a lot. There's no

759
01:27:49,916 --> 01:27:52,166
number. They just say a lot of people and

760
01:27:52,166 --> 01:27:54,625
but they just like go ahead.

761
01:27:54,625 --> 01:27:55,625
The thing is the way that people are

762
01:27:55,625 --> 01:27:56,833
living as well, like in the Northern

763
01:27:56,833 --> 01:27:58,458
Territory, we're privileged enough to not

764
01:27:58,458 --> 01:27:59,833
have to come down to the river system to

765
01:27:59,833 --> 01:28:01,791
have it, have a shower or wash our

766
01:28:01,791 --> 01:28:03,375
clothes and things like that. Yeah.

767
01:28:04,000 --> 01:28:05,083
So it's very different. It's us

768
01:28:05,083 --> 01:28:06,833
inherently at a safer in a safer

769
01:28:06,833 --> 01:28:08,875
position. Yeah. It's kind of a spiritual

770
01:28:08,875 --> 01:28:10,791
animal to and Timor Lesty, the

771
01:28:10,791 --> 01:28:12,583
saltwater crocodiles as well.

772
01:28:13,250 --> 01:28:15,000
Yeah. Same for some of our Aboriginal

773
01:28:15,000 --> 01:28:16,375
communities here in the territory. Oh,

774
01:28:16,375 --> 01:28:18,833
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let me ask you

775
01:28:18,833 --> 01:28:20,375
something like, OK, so you're up there

776
01:28:20,375 --> 01:28:21,791
doing the river shark and stuff. Did you

777
01:28:21,791 --> 01:28:24,875
ever come across a sawfish very often?

778
01:28:26,625 --> 01:28:28,791
I never saw a sawfish during my actual

779
01:28:28,791 --> 01:28:31,833
research. So just me being very unlucky.

780
01:28:32,333 --> 01:28:34,083
I'm pretty sure that one spent past us

781
01:28:34,083 --> 01:28:36,083
one day because the person that I was

782
01:28:36,083 --> 01:28:37,875
with saw some very shark

783
01:28:37,875 --> 01:28:39,916
like Ray Finn's way upstream.

784
01:28:39,958 --> 01:28:42,750
So they're definitely around, but I've

785
01:28:42,750 --> 01:28:44,875
never encountered them during my

786
01:28:44,875 --> 01:28:47,458
research, but they're kind of usually

787
01:28:47,458 --> 01:28:49,916
kind of more upstream than the river

788
01:28:49,916 --> 01:28:52,000
sharks and they're doing kind of

789
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:52,625
different behaviours.

790
01:28:52,958 --> 01:28:54,375
So, for example, the river sharks, the

791
01:28:54,375 --> 01:28:56,791
way that they move is completely unlike

792
01:28:56,791 --> 01:28:58,666
the rest of the Urie Haline

793
01:28:58,666 --> 01:28:59,958
species in northern Australia.

794
01:28:59,958 --> 01:29:03,000
So, for example, in the wet season, our

795
01:29:03,000 --> 01:29:05,083
river sharks are moving all the way out

796
01:29:05,083 --> 01:29:06,958
to the river mouth when we have our big

797
01:29:06,958 --> 01:29:08,625
freshwater flows coming down the river

798
01:29:08,625 --> 01:29:10,541
and they're kind of hanging around the

799
01:29:10,541 --> 01:29:12,458
river mouth for most of the wet season.

800
01:29:12,958 --> 01:29:14,458
But then we have our bull sharks, the

801
01:29:14,458 --> 01:29:16,291
large two sawfish, the freshwater with

802
01:29:16,291 --> 01:29:18,500
praise. They actually go further, further

803
01:29:18,500 --> 01:29:20,958
upstream and they use the wetlands. They

804
01:29:20,958 --> 01:29:24,166
use all that highly productive wet season

805
01:29:24,166 --> 01:29:25,958
flooding floodplains to feed.

806
01:29:26,958 --> 01:29:29,250
So the river sharks are kind of just

807
01:29:29,250 --> 01:29:31,541
their own thing that do their own thing

808
01:29:31,541 --> 01:29:33,583
and they're completely different. So the

809
01:29:33,583 --> 01:29:34,166
way that they have a.

810
01:29:34,166 --> 01:29:35,333
So, sorry to interrupt because

811
01:29:35,333 --> 01:29:36,208
like when you said I have to.

812
01:29:36,208 --> 01:29:37,666
And the bull sharks go up river too.

813
01:29:37,666 --> 01:29:39,791
Like is it like you mentioned after is it

814
01:29:39,791 --> 01:29:41,750
like in terms of how you fish is like a

815
01:29:41,750 --> 01:29:42,750
rod of real and how you

816
01:29:42,750 --> 01:29:43,750
catch these sharks, right?

817
01:29:43,750 --> 01:29:47,166
Yeah. So I think that the bull sharks are

818
01:29:47,166 --> 01:29:47,708
the bull sharks are

819
01:29:47,708 --> 01:29:49,291
popping around the river mouth.

820
01:29:49,291 --> 01:29:51,000
Or is it quite as it just in the same

821
01:29:51,000 --> 01:29:52,916
area as the river sharks.

822
01:29:53,000 --> 01:29:55,458
But then they're using that to make sure

823
01:29:55,458 --> 01:29:57,208
they pop the wet season.

824
01:29:57,208 --> 01:29:59,958
Yeah. And they're using that wet season

825
01:29:59,958 --> 01:30:02,083
to extend further and further upstream

826
01:30:02,083 --> 01:30:03,708
pretty much as far as they can go.

827
01:30:03,708 --> 01:30:05,916
So in the Roper River, for example,

828
01:30:06,125 --> 01:30:08,250
they've been recorded to at least 300

829
01:30:08,250 --> 01:30:10,583
kilometers upstream and they will go

830
01:30:10,583 --> 01:30:11,833
absolutely right up

831
01:30:11,833 --> 01:30:12,916
as far as they can go.

832
01:30:12,958 --> 01:30:13,166
So I think that's a good question.

833
01:30:13,375 --> 01:30:14,625
Do you have.

834
01:30:14,625 --> 01:30:16,083
Have you got any.

835
01:30:16,291 --> 01:30:17,333
You probably will be on

836
01:30:17,333 --> 01:30:18,500
what you did in your study.

837
01:30:18,500 --> 01:30:20,500
But do you have any feel for like how do

838
01:30:20,500 --> 01:30:22,208
all these things interact with that with

839
01:30:22,208 --> 01:30:23,750
the you got the bull sharks got the river

840
01:30:23,750 --> 01:30:25,750
sharks got the sawfish up there and you

841
01:30:25,750 --> 01:30:26,666
got fresh water

842
01:30:26,666 --> 01:30:28,000
stingrays going up there too.

843
01:30:28,750 --> 01:30:30,958
Yeah. So I think that the freshwater we

844
01:30:30,958 --> 01:30:32,375
praise aren't really

845
01:30:32,375 --> 01:30:33,916
interacting too much with the sharks.

846
01:30:33,916 --> 01:30:36,000
I've caught a couple of freshwater with

847
01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:37,166
braids that have got scars

848
01:30:37,166 --> 01:30:38,833
that look like crocodile bites.

849
01:30:42,083 --> 01:30:44,625
And so I can't really speak too much to

850
01:30:44,625 --> 01:30:45,375
because I haven't

851
01:30:45,375 --> 01:30:46,583
interacted with them very much.

852
01:30:47,250 --> 01:30:49,166
But then certainly when you're catching

853
01:30:49,166 --> 01:30:51,416
river sharks, it's really interesting.

854
01:30:52,958 --> 01:30:55,375
One year there will be absolutely no bull

855
01:30:55,375 --> 01:30:56,750
sharks where you're

856
01:30:56,750 --> 01:30:57,541
catching river sharks.

857
01:30:57,833 --> 01:30:59,250
But then the next year you'll have bull

858
01:30:59,250 --> 01:31:01,875
sharks just absolutely mixed in and you

859
01:31:01,875 --> 01:31:03,208
don't know what kind of

860
01:31:03,208 --> 01:31:04,458
is driving this change.

861
01:31:05,958 --> 01:31:08,291
So generally we consider that the bull

862
01:31:08,291 --> 01:31:10,000
sharks are not really going to be

863
01:31:10,000 --> 01:31:11,458
overlapping too much with the river

864
01:31:11,458 --> 01:31:13,916
sharks, probably except for that early

865
01:31:13,916 --> 01:31:15,791
popping season when they've just all been

866
01:31:15,791 --> 01:31:16,958
put in the same location.

867
01:31:17,666 --> 01:31:19,583
But generally we consider that the bull

868
01:31:19,583 --> 01:31:21,333
sharks are going to be upstream further

869
01:31:21,333 --> 01:31:23,000
and not really overlapping.

870
01:31:23,750 --> 01:31:25,000
And then the two river sharks species

871
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:27,000
will be in the same the

872
01:31:27,000 --> 01:31:27,958
same overlapping spot.

873
01:31:28,958 --> 01:31:31,333
But certainly when you're fishing for

874
01:31:31,333 --> 01:31:34,166
sharks, you catch a lot of sharks in this

875
01:31:34,166 --> 01:31:36,708
area that have bite

876
01:31:36,708 --> 01:31:37,750
marks from other sharks.

877
01:31:38,208 --> 01:31:40,791
So we obviously got two potentially three

878
01:31:40,791 --> 01:31:41,916
species that are all

879
01:31:41,916 --> 01:31:44,458
occurring in quite a narrow habitat.

880
01:31:45,666 --> 01:31:47,750
And so, of course, we're going to have

881
01:31:47,750 --> 01:31:50,541
overlapping bitey people

882
01:31:50,541 --> 01:31:51,958
that want to bite each other.

883
01:31:52,000 --> 01:31:55,333
So you can you can catch some sharks that

884
01:31:55,333 --> 01:31:57,500
have some pretty crazy, crazy injuries.

885
01:31:58,291 --> 01:32:01,458
Yeah. Is there any evidence? I've seen a

886
01:32:01,458 --> 01:32:03,000
few video clips of like

887
01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:04,958
crocodiles with bull sharks.

888
01:32:05,583 --> 01:32:07,458
Any evidence of like them?

889
01:32:07,458 --> 01:32:08,541
I'm sure they did. It happens.

890
01:32:08,541 --> 01:32:10,041
But any evidence that you've seen of them

891
01:32:10,041 --> 01:32:11,208
eating river sharks?

892
01:32:11,958 --> 01:32:14,625
I've never seen a river shark be in my

893
01:32:14,625 --> 01:32:16,166
croc. And all of the pictures that I've

894
01:32:16,166 --> 01:32:18,500
seen of the crocodiles taking

895
01:32:18,500 --> 01:32:19,833
sharks has been a bull shark.

896
01:32:20,375 --> 01:32:22,000
But I'm sure that it happens.

897
01:32:22,708 --> 01:32:24,708
Essentially, a shark is going to be a lot

898
01:32:24,708 --> 01:32:26,000
faster than a crocodile.

899
01:32:26,375 --> 01:32:28,375
And having worked with crocodiles, they

900
01:32:28,375 --> 01:32:31,041
are just inherently lazy. But if a shark

901
01:32:31,041 --> 01:32:32,958
happens to just swim right past the jaws

902
01:32:32,958 --> 01:32:33,958
of a crocodile, it's

903
01:32:33,958 --> 01:32:35,208
going to absolutely grab it.

904
01:32:35,833 --> 01:32:37,583
So that's generally what happens there.

905
01:32:37,583 --> 01:32:40,000
Those crocs are pretty quick, especially

906
01:32:40,000 --> 01:32:42,541
short distances. They're lunge.

907
01:32:42,541 --> 01:32:44,250
And I mean, they can lunge. Go out if

908
01:32:44,250 --> 01:32:45,958
anybody wants to find out. Just go out.

909
01:32:45,958 --> 01:32:47,875
There's a number of websites you go to

910
01:32:47,875 --> 01:32:50,000
and just get an idea how much these

911
01:32:50,000 --> 01:32:51,666
crocodiles can lunge.

912
01:32:51,666 --> 01:32:52,875
It's pretty impressive.

913
01:32:54,041 --> 01:32:55,333
Otherwise, you seem kind of laven on the

914
01:32:55,333 --> 01:32:57,416
riverbanks doing nothing. Just lay right

915
01:32:57,416 --> 01:32:59,166
stuff. But they they. Yeah.

916
01:32:59,166 --> 01:33:02,000
And if something swims in, you know, in

917
01:33:02,000 --> 01:33:04,291
distance of its jaws, the way that it can

918
01:33:04,291 --> 01:33:06,000
swing its head around and just grab

919
01:33:06,000 --> 01:33:08,291
things so quickly is absolutely crazy.

920
01:33:08,958 --> 01:33:10,625
Yeah. The reflexes are amazing. Yeah.

921
01:33:10,625 --> 01:33:13,208
Yeah. It's pretty incredible there. So so

922
01:33:13,208 --> 01:33:14,625
that obviously it's

923
01:33:14,625 --> 01:33:15,833
fascinating hearing your story.

924
01:33:15,958 --> 01:33:18,000
And I just want to emphasize, Julie is

925
01:33:18,000 --> 01:33:19,625
doing something like you said earlier,

926
01:33:19,625 --> 01:33:21,541
she's working in an area on species that

927
01:33:21,541 --> 01:33:22,750
most people won't go out

928
01:33:22,750 --> 01:33:24,041
work in those areas and stuff.

929
01:33:24,291 --> 01:33:25,666
And especially if you're a young person

930
01:33:25,666 --> 01:33:27,375
looking for something to do, you want to

931
01:33:27,375 --> 01:33:30,083
make a mark for yourself early on, you

932
01:33:30,083 --> 01:33:31,916
know, kind of what Julie has done to find

933
01:33:31,916 --> 01:33:33,458
something that nobody's looking at.

934
01:33:33,833 --> 01:33:35,625
And often in an area that nobody will be

935
01:33:35,625 --> 01:33:37,833
nobody else is willing to go to. And

936
01:33:37,833 --> 01:33:39,958
you'll find you'll find that's that's where you can have a chance.

937
01:33:40,041 --> 01:33:43,875
When you when you tell you know, even you

938
01:33:43,875 --> 01:33:45,416
mentioned it, like a lot of people like

939
01:33:45,416 --> 01:33:47,333
you see the sharks are crystal clear

940
01:33:47,333 --> 01:33:49,000
waters. It's beautiful. They can dive in

941
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:50,500
and everything. And you had the opposite

942
01:33:50,500 --> 01:33:52,708
because of the people start now.

943
01:33:53,125 --> 01:33:54,791
If you go out and do another white shark

944
01:33:54,791 --> 01:33:57,000
study, literally describe to have to be a

945
01:33:57,000 --> 01:33:59,416
1000 and non scientists are scientists

946
01:33:59,416 --> 01:34:01,208
are out there. When you describe to be

947
01:34:01,208 --> 01:34:03,333
what to do, they just feel like like, why

948
01:34:03,333 --> 01:34:06,083
would you choose to study something like

949
01:34:06,083 --> 01:34:07,958
that in an area where you're not in.

950
01:34:08,000 --> 01:34:11,541
She came on. She actually worked on these

951
01:34:11,541 --> 01:34:14,583
sharks that makes it interesting for you

952
01:34:14,583 --> 01:34:19,041
to put yourself in a system where you're

953
01:34:19,041 --> 01:34:21,708
probably more apt to be in danger or

954
01:34:21,708 --> 01:34:24,166
actually, you know, once once you know,

955
01:34:24,458 --> 01:34:27,125
you're kind of a

956
01:34:27,125 --> 01:34:28,958
precious habitat for that thing.

957
01:34:28,958 --> 01:34:30,041
And I think that's pretty much all kind

958
01:34:30,041 --> 01:34:32,750
of kind of water. Yeah, I think I was

959
01:34:32,750 --> 01:34:34,875
100% certain before I went to Jakarta

960
01:34:34,875 --> 01:34:37,208
that this thing was gone. So when I did

961
01:34:37,208 --> 01:34:38,916
most of this research on the Java

962
01:34:38,916 --> 01:34:40,625
Stingray, it was during COVID. So I

963
01:34:40,625 --> 01:34:41,708
couldn't go and travel.

964
01:34:43,000 --> 01:34:44,916
And so when we went to Jakarta was the

965
01:34:44,916 --> 01:34:46,333
first time that I'd actually been and

966
01:34:46,333 --> 01:34:47,541
seen the habitat of the

967
01:34:47,541 --> 01:34:49,666
Java Stingray and just seeing.

968
01:34:51,000 --> 01:34:52,541
Just seeing the place in person, even

969
01:34:52,541 --> 01:34:54,333
though I knew what kind of state it was

970
01:34:54,333 --> 01:34:57,708
probably in. I was just like, if I was

971
01:34:57,708 --> 01:35:00,708
sure before I'm like 150% sure now

972
01:35:00,708 --> 01:35:03,250
because you know, even just the color of

973
01:35:03,250 --> 01:35:05,083
the water, the pollution there, just the

974
01:35:05,083 --> 01:35:07,208
number of people, the amount of fishing,

975
01:35:07,208 --> 01:35:10,250
the fishing intensity, it was coming from

976
01:35:10,250 --> 01:35:10,916
the Northern Territory.

977
01:35:11,125 --> 01:35:13,291
It was just something like you have to

978
01:35:13,291 --> 01:35:16,125
see to believe it was crazy. Yeah, yeah,

979
01:35:16,125 --> 01:35:17,041
that's too bad. And

980
01:35:17,041 --> 01:35:17,958
it's the thing about it.

981
01:35:18,000 --> 01:35:20,333
And just to emphasize, we only know that

982
01:35:20,333 --> 01:35:23,000
Java Stingray from one specimen collected

983
01:35:23,000 --> 01:35:27,083
in 1862 that was in a museum collection

984
01:35:27,083 --> 01:35:28,958
in Europe. If it wasn't for that museum

985
01:35:28,958 --> 01:35:30,708
collection, we'd have no idea

986
01:35:30,708 --> 01:35:32,000
this thing ever even existed.

987
01:35:33,041 --> 01:35:35,625
And so that's that's I guess another plug

988
01:35:35,625 --> 01:35:37,125
for museum collections, why the

989
01:35:37,125 --> 01:35:38,333
importance of having those things.

990
01:35:38,625 --> 01:35:41,333
Otherwise, who knows how many species may

991
01:35:41,333 --> 01:35:42,583
have disappeared because there's no

992
01:35:42,583 --> 01:35:44,583
specimens to document

993
01:35:44,583 --> 01:35:45,791
that it even occurred.

994
01:35:46,000 --> 01:35:48,791
And also with the Java Stingray, the fact

995
01:35:48,791 --> 01:35:51,666
that habitat disappeared, you know, kind

996
01:35:51,666 --> 01:35:55,125
of gives you kind of a foreshadowing of

997
01:35:55,125 --> 01:35:56,708
things like with the river sharks, if the

998
01:35:56,708 --> 01:36:00,083
habitats impacted, sawfish, as we

999
01:36:00,083 --> 01:36:01,666
mentioned, and a number of other species.

1000
01:36:02,750 --> 01:36:05,666
And I got it. It's just around these rare

1001
01:36:05,666 --> 01:36:07,250
and extinct and potentially extinct

1002
01:36:07,250 --> 01:36:08,208
species. I got to ask you

1003
01:36:08,208 --> 01:36:10,000
about your tattoo on your arm.

1004
01:36:10,875 --> 01:36:11,583
The Red Sea torpedo.

1005
01:36:12,708 --> 01:36:13,833
Yes, I got the Red Sea

1006
01:36:13,833 --> 01:36:16,083
torpedo tattooed last year.

1007
01:36:16,083 --> 01:36:19,416
Yes, I think. Tell us about that one.

1008
01:36:20,333 --> 01:36:22,208
So the Red Sea torpedo is another species

1009
01:36:22,208 --> 01:36:23,708
that I worked on when I was working on

1010
01:36:23,708 --> 01:36:25,958
the Java Stingray. So for my honours

1011
01:36:25,958 --> 01:36:27,416
project, I was looking at the extinction

1012
01:36:27,416 --> 01:36:29,208
risk of really rare species that I've

1013
01:36:29,208 --> 01:36:30,583
only known from museum specimens.

1014
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:33,541
So the Red Sea torpedo, there was only

1015
01:36:33,541 --> 01:36:36,333
three specimens of the species caught in

1016
01:36:36,333 --> 01:36:40,000
1897, just off Yemen in the Red Sea. And

1017
01:36:40,000 --> 01:36:41,375
it's never been seen again.

1018
01:36:42,416 --> 01:36:44,166
But because we haven't been able to

1019
01:36:44,166 --> 01:36:46,416
survey that region, we still don't know

1020
01:36:46,416 --> 01:36:48,458
whether it's there or whether it's not

1021
01:36:48,458 --> 01:36:49,791
because obviously there's so much

1022
01:36:49,791 --> 01:36:51,750
conflict in that region that people

1023
01:36:51,750 --> 01:36:53,875
generally can't really put too much

1024
01:36:53,875 --> 01:36:56,000
effort into surveys for a

1025
01:36:56,000 --> 01:36:57,958
little known torpedo ray.

1026
01:36:58,000 --> 01:37:00,291
So it's kind of one of those species that

1027
01:37:00,291 --> 01:37:03,208
I'm like, oh, one day I really, really,

1028
01:37:03,208 --> 01:37:05,541
really want to go find it, or at least do

1029
01:37:05,541 --> 01:37:08,791
surveys and see if it's around or not.

1030
01:37:08,791 --> 01:37:10,166
Yeah, yeah. So that's another one. You're

1031
01:37:10,166 --> 01:37:13,666
really into these little known, extinct,

1032
01:37:13,666 --> 01:37:14,916
potentially extinct species.

1033
01:37:16,041 --> 01:37:18,875
Yeah, I like these odd things that nobody

1034
01:37:18,875 --> 01:37:21,000
else is thinking about. And as you were

1035
01:37:21,000 --> 01:37:23,000
saying before, there is so many species

1036
01:37:23,000 --> 01:37:24,166
that we don't know

1037
01:37:24,166 --> 01:37:25,333
pretty much anything about.

1038
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:30,125
I did a review as part of my PhD on all

1039
01:37:30,125 --> 01:37:32,625
of the Yuri Haline and Estrion species of

1040
01:37:32,625 --> 01:37:34,416
sharks and rays. And there are so many of

1041
01:37:34,416 --> 01:37:36,625
them that are just completely so poorly

1042
01:37:36,625 --> 01:37:38,541
known that we can't do any kind of

1043
01:37:38,541 --> 01:37:39,500
management for them.

1044
01:37:40,208 --> 01:37:41,875
So, so much space.

1045
01:37:43,083 --> 01:37:45,291
So is that in the future, like now that

1046
01:37:45,291 --> 01:37:48,958
you've got your PhD and, you know, you

1047
01:37:48,958 --> 01:37:51,291
obviously have an interest in looking at

1048
01:37:51,291 --> 01:37:53,791
these little known species. Is that what

1049
01:37:53,791 --> 01:37:55,458
you would like to concentrate in the

1050
01:37:55,458 --> 01:37:58,000
future that continue to sort of look for

1051
01:37:58,000 --> 01:37:59,250
these species describe

1052
01:37:59,250 --> 01:38:01,333
them, discover new populations.

1053
01:38:01,791 --> 01:38:03,291
Is that where your

1054
01:38:03,291 --> 01:38:05,125
research topics are headed?

1055
01:38:05,958 --> 01:38:07,208
Yeah, that's what I would really ideally

1056
01:38:07,208 --> 01:38:09,541
like to be doing. So there's there's so

1057
01:38:09,541 --> 01:38:11,250
much technology and so much cool things

1058
01:38:11,250 --> 01:38:12,791
that you can do with species, but I

1059
01:38:12,791 --> 01:38:15,333
really kind of want to go back to basics

1060
01:38:15,333 --> 01:38:18,000
of figuring out what things are where,

1061
01:38:18,000 --> 01:38:20,083
what are their life history traits, what

1062
01:38:20,083 --> 01:38:21,708
is all of that kind of basic information

1063
01:38:21,708 --> 01:38:24,291
that we need to just start managing them

1064
01:38:24,291 --> 01:38:25,833
in the first place and just start

1065
01:38:25,833 --> 01:38:27,666
understanding them in the first place so

1066
01:38:27,666 --> 01:38:29,000
that we can actually protect them.

1067
01:38:29,958 --> 01:38:31,583
And that's, yeah, that's essentially

1068
01:38:31,583 --> 01:38:32,541
where I'd like to go.

1069
01:38:32,541 --> 01:38:34,791
Whether or not I find some funding.

1070
01:38:34,791 --> 01:38:35,958
That's a different question.

1071
01:38:35,958 --> 01:38:36,583
Yeah,

1072
01:38:37,958 --> 01:38:39,500
we could have a whole episode.

1073
01:38:40,958 --> 01:38:43,208
Trust me when Julia and I were traveling

1074
01:38:43,208 --> 01:38:46,291
with Adriana and Naya, which we got an

1075
01:38:46,291 --> 01:38:47,875
earful and heard an earful from me and

1076
01:38:47,875 --> 01:38:49,375
the whole thing like good luck.

1077
01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:51,375
You just have to. So hard. And I think

1078
01:38:51,375 --> 01:38:53,541
that people are forgetting about that

1079
01:38:53,541 --> 01:38:56,791
this kind of more basic, less exciting

1080
01:38:56,791 --> 01:38:59,291
research is really, really important

1081
01:38:59,291 --> 01:39:00,958
because there's so many like really cool

1082
01:39:00,958 --> 01:39:02,166
fun things that we can be doing.

1083
01:39:02,166 --> 01:39:04,333
And that's it seems to be where the

1084
01:39:04,333 --> 01:39:06,500
funding is kind of going. Do you have one

1085
01:39:06,500 --> 01:39:08,500
species that if you had if you had, say,

1086
01:39:08,500 --> 01:39:09,916
funding wasn't a limitation or is there

1087
01:39:09,916 --> 01:39:11,583
one species you'd like to try to go find

1088
01:39:11,583 --> 01:39:13,958
the Red Sea torpedo for sure.

1089
01:39:13,958 --> 01:39:16,583
They're so interesting. All of the

1090
01:39:16,583 --> 01:39:17,750
torpedoes because they're so poorly

1091
01:39:17,750 --> 01:39:19,875
known. Like, as you as you know, Dave,

1092
01:39:19,875 --> 01:39:21,541
the taxonomy is so poorly resolved as

1093
01:39:21,541 --> 01:39:23,291
well. Like, I'm really interested in the

1094
01:39:23,291 --> 01:39:24,500
taxonomy. These things, too.

1095
01:39:26,000 --> 01:39:27,500
Yeah, that's really that's really that's

1096
01:39:27,500 --> 01:39:29,000
really good. Exciting, exciting to hear

1097
01:39:29,000 --> 01:39:32,291
you have the stuff. And so that's kind of

1098
01:39:32,291 --> 01:39:33,791
cool. Red Sea torpedo. That's what I have

1099
01:39:33,791 --> 01:39:35,375
to look at. But I yeah, like you said,

1100
01:39:35,375 --> 01:39:36,666
it's a conflict zone. So I don't know how

1101
01:39:36,666 --> 01:39:39,750
much we could really, really do much

1102
01:39:39,750 --> 01:39:39,958
there right now on it.

1103
01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:43,583
Yeah. So and so now you're done and

1104
01:39:43,583 --> 01:39:44,916
everything. You're out kind of like you

1105
01:39:44,916 --> 01:39:46,333
know, you're working a couple different

1106
01:39:46,333 --> 01:39:48,416
jobs, you're out looking for for

1107
01:39:48,416 --> 01:39:49,791
employment now. Do you want to make any

1108
01:39:49,791 --> 01:39:51,958
kind of a plea or grovel to employers?

1109
01:39:52,000 --> 01:39:56,000
Yeah, I'm just out in the world by myself

1110
01:39:56,000 --> 01:40:00,250
now. Yeah, look, I am really, really in a

1111
01:40:00,250 --> 01:40:01,916
position where I really want to stay in

1112
01:40:01,916 --> 01:40:03,500
the Northern Territory and do research

1113
01:40:03,500 --> 01:40:05,500
here. So if anyone knows of any kind of

1114
01:40:05,500 --> 01:40:07,625
funding opportunities that I could base

1115
01:40:07,625 --> 01:40:09,625
myself with here, that'd be awesome. But

1116
01:40:09,625 --> 01:40:11,166
also, if anyone wants to work on

1117
01:40:11,166 --> 01:40:12,708
torpedoish things, too, you

1118
01:40:12,708 --> 01:40:13,916
could totally collaborate.

1119
01:40:16,000 --> 01:40:17,375
Yeah, I would that work? Like, can I ask

1120
01:40:17,375 --> 01:40:19,708
like, like, you mentioned a couple times

1121
01:40:19,708 --> 01:40:21,000
if I can get funding? Like, are you

1122
01:40:21,000 --> 01:40:22,833
working out of the university right now?

1123
01:40:23,208 --> 01:40:26,333
Or? Yeah, so in said jobs? Yeah, so at

1124
01:40:26,333 --> 01:40:28,125
the moment, I've got two casual positions

1125
01:40:28,125 --> 01:40:30,083
that aren't related to my own research.

1126
01:40:30,083 --> 01:40:32,208
So one of them is a research academic

1127
01:40:32,208 --> 01:40:34,625
position. But that's on, I'm actually

1128
01:40:34,625 --> 01:40:37,458
doing freshwater invertebrates. And then

1129
01:40:37,458 --> 01:40:41,666
I'm also managing my colleges assets. So

1130
01:40:41,666 --> 01:40:43,666
our vessels, our field gear and all of

1131
01:40:43,666 --> 01:40:44,541
that kind of thing. And doing

1132
01:40:45,000 --> 01:40:46,666
that, and then, yeah, management of

1133
01:40:46,666 --> 01:40:48,833
systems and safety inductions and things

1134
01:40:48,833 --> 01:40:52,291
like that. So yeah, really good for

1135
01:40:52,291 --> 01:40:54,750
experience and learning new skills and

1136
01:40:54,750 --> 01:40:56,958
things like that. And then, yeah,

1137
01:40:56,958 --> 01:40:58,000
applying for postdocs and

1138
01:40:58,000 --> 01:40:59,291
things like that as well.

1139
01:41:00,041 --> 01:41:02,000
Gotcha. Good. So like the postdoc, that

1140
01:41:02,000 --> 01:41:04,333
would be part of the fun, like if you got

1141
01:41:04,333 --> 01:41:07,083
funding, it'd be a postdoc at university,

1142
01:41:07,291 --> 01:41:08,958
hopefully in the same area.

1143
01:41:09,208 --> 01:41:12,166
So ideally, I would find my own kind of

1144
01:41:12,166 --> 01:41:14,208
grant that would cover a salary for me.

1145
01:41:14,208 --> 01:41:15,875
And then I could kind of design my own

1146
01:41:15,875 --> 01:41:19,833
postdoctoral research. But there's a

1147
01:41:19,833 --> 01:41:22,375
place in Darwin that has had a couple of

1148
01:41:22,375 --> 01:41:26,041
not so much sharky positions come up, but

1149
01:41:26,041 --> 01:41:28,416
I could potentially divert them in that

1150
01:41:28,416 --> 01:41:29,916
direction, maybe in a couple of years.

1151
01:41:30,708 --> 01:41:32,458
So we'll see. Okay. Yeah,

1152
01:41:32,458 --> 01:41:34,291
okay. I like the plan. Yeah.

1153
01:41:34,958 --> 01:41:37,791
Well, sometimes you have to go on these

1154
01:41:37,791 --> 01:41:40,458
circuitous directions, circle around to

1155
01:41:40,458 --> 01:41:41,958
get where you want to go. I mean, I've

1156
01:41:41,958 --> 01:41:43,791
certainly done it most. I think Andrew,

1157
01:41:43,791 --> 01:41:45,125
almost everybody we've had the show,

1158
01:41:45,125 --> 01:41:47,083
including yourself, we've had to go off

1159
01:41:47,083 --> 01:41:49,416
in these tangents, let's say, to

1160
01:41:49,416 --> 01:41:50,791
eventually get back to

1161
01:41:50,791 --> 01:41:52,000
doing what we want to do.

1162
01:41:52,000 --> 01:41:54,083
But I think if you learn skills and learn

1163
01:41:54,083 --> 01:41:55,000
stuff along the way,

1164
01:41:55,000 --> 01:41:56,958
it all helps later on.

1165
01:41:56,958 --> 01:41:59,625
I did, I did science communication for 16

1166
01:41:59,625 --> 01:42:01,125
years before I got a job in science

1167
01:42:01,125 --> 01:42:04,541
communication on my own. Hopefully won't

1168
01:42:04,541 --> 01:42:06,833
take you that long. But that's no look, I

1169
01:42:06,833 --> 01:42:09,125
think it's just it's it's one of those,

1170
01:42:09,125 --> 01:42:10,666
it's one of those careers where people

1171
01:42:10,666 --> 01:42:13,500
don't realize how hard it is, you know,

1172
01:42:13,833 --> 01:42:14,958
you do all of this work to

1173
01:42:14,958 --> 01:42:15,958
get yourself into this position.

1174
01:42:15,958 --> 01:42:19,166
But then you don't really realize until

1175
01:42:19,166 --> 01:42:21,000
you're in this position that it is quite

1176
01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:23,750
hard than to secure yourself a permanent

1177
01:42:23,750 --> 01:42:26,916
role. So yeah, everyone that is in their

1178
01:42:26,916 --> 01:42:29,000
early career, don't fret. It's not just

1179
01:42:29,000 --> 01:42:30,583
happening to you. It literally happens to

1180
01:42:30,583 --> 01:42:33,541
everyone. Everyone, everyone knows

1181
01:42:33,541 --> 01:42:35,125
through Andrew and I can testify that

1182
01:42:35,125 --> 01:42:36,125
we're, let's say a

1183
01:42:36,125 --> 01:42:36,958
little older than Julie.

1184
01:42:37,000 --> 01:42:40,541
And also, like, I mean, think about every

1185
01:42:40,541 --> 01:42:43,625
episode that we've that we've done has

1186
01:42:43,625 --> 01:42:46,375
had someone who has had a very different

1187
01:42:46,375 --> 01:42:48,625
path, you know, meandering in and out of

1188
01:42:48,625 --> 01:42:50,916
shark science doesn't matter how long

1189
01:42:50,916 --> 01:42:52,958
you've been doing it or how or how short you've been doing it.

1190
01:42:53,000 --> 01:42:55,833
It's everybody has to go. Everybody

1191
01:42:55,833 --> 01:42:57,541
doesn't have to go through it. But

1192
01:42:57,541 --> 01:42:59,250
everybody goes tends to go through it

1193
01:42:59,250 --> 01:43:01,291
just because the way that it's built. I

1194
01:43:01,291 --> 01:43:03,250
think you just have to be. And Julie, you

1195
01:43:03,250 --> 01:43:04,583
can kind of attest this, you just have to

1196
01:43:04,583 --> 01:43:07,625
be adaptive to the process and keep

1197
01:43:07,625 --> 01:43:09,458
looking out and keep being like a bit

1198
01:43:09,458 --> 01:43:11,291
stubborn and saying, hey, I'm not going

1199
01:43:11,291 --> 01:43:12,666
to give up on this dream. I'm going to

1200
01:43:12,666 --> 01:43:14,833
continue to do it. And that could be six

1201
01:43:14,833 --> 01:43:16,416
months from now, a year from now, two

1202
01:43:16,416 --> 01:43:18,916
years or three years or more. But if

1203
01:43:18,916 --> 01:43:20,791
you're stubborn enough, like I was, you

1204
01:43:20,791 --> 01:43:21,500
know, you'll get in

1205
01:43:21,500 --> 01:43:21,958
and you'll figure it out.

1206
01:43:22,041 --> 01:43:25,916
Right. So I think that's I think that's

1207
01:43:25,916 --> 01:43:27,666
great. I also think we're in like, you

1208
01:43:27,666 --> 01:43:29,500
know, Julie, you're at that age where

1209
01:43:29,500 --> 01:43:31,791
you've seen some people really make a

1210
01:43:31,791 --> 01:43:34,375
career, you know, through creating

1211
01:43:34,375 --> 01:43:38,250
content and and, you know, and be able to

1212
01:43:38,250 --> 01:43:40,125
have some of their bills

1213
01:43:40,125 --> 01:43:40,958
kind of paid through that.

1214
01:43:40,958 --> 01:43:43,333
Like, have you have you seen have you

1215
01:43:43,333 --> 01:43:45,875
seen people do that, like within your own

1216
01:43:45,875 --> 01:43:48,000
circles or whether it be within shark

1217
01:43:48,000 --> 01:43:50,166
science or other ways so that you can or

1218
01:43:50,166 --> 01:43:51,375
have you thought about doing something

1219
01:43:51,375 --> 01:43:54,583
like that as a way to pay the bills and

1220
01:43:54,583 --> 01:43:56,083
also do the research that you want?

1221
01:43:56,916 --> 01:43:58,541
Yeah, I've not I've not so much seen it

1222
01:43:58,541 --> 01:44:00,708
in my own circles, but certainly extended

1223
01:44:00,708 --> 01:44:02,250
circles. There's certainly people that I

1224
01:44:02,250 --> 01:44:04,666
know have done that. I've been thinking

1225
01:44:04,666 --> 01:44:06,791
about it actually a fair bit lately, not

1226
01:44:06,791 --> 01:44:09,333
so much just in shark science, but I've

1227
01:44:09,333 --> 01:44:09,958
got so many other passions like a wild shark.

1228
01:44:10,000 --> 01:44:10,708
I've got so many other passions like

1229
01:44:10,708 --> 01:44:12,916
wildlife rescue, creating habitat,

1230
01:44:13,458 --> 01:44:16,333
climate change, all of those kinds of

1231
01:44:16,333 --> 01:44:17,541
things. So I have been thinking more

1232
01:44:17,541 --> 01:44:20,291
about content creation lately. But it's

1233
01:44:20,291 --> 01:44:23,125
just such a I think I think it's just

1234
01:44:23,125 --> 01:44:25,000
such a hard thing to start doing because

1235
01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:26,708
you're making yourself so vulnerable by

1236
01:44:26,708 --> 01:44:28,083
putting yourself out there like that.

1237
01:44:28,375 --> 01:44:31,000
So it's something that I'm thinking about

1238
01:44:31,000 --> 01:44:34,541
whether or not I'll get into it. That'll

1239
01:44:34,541 --> 01:44:35,833
just be having to be brave.

1240
01:44:37,041 --> 01:44:39,500
No, I mean, it's true. I know a lot of

1241
01:44:39,500 --> 01:44:42,875
scientists who get into this and who do

1242
01:44:42,875 --> 01:44:44,916
content creation, including myself. And

1243
01:44:44,916 --> 01:44:46,750
you worry about what people what other

1244
01:44:46,750 --> 01:44:49,583
scientists are going to think in future

1245
01:44:49,583 --> 01:44:51,166
and potential future employers,

1246
01:44:51,166 --> 01:44:54,000
universities, institutes that you want to

1247
01:44:54,000 --> 01:44:58,416
work with that may or may not have a good

1248
01:44:58,416 --> 01:45:03,083
outlook on social media and science

1249
01:45:03,083 --> 01:45:04,375
communication, and

1250
01:45:04,375 --> 01:45:05,958
especially the way it goes.

1251
01:45:06,000 --> 01:45:08,625
You know, some people are very scientific

1252
01:45:08,625 --> 01:45:11,541
and educational and they'd like to talk

1253
01:45:11,541 --> 01:45:13,416
about their science and keep it that way

1254
01:45:13,416 --> 01:45:16,208
and stay out of sort of controversial

1255
01:45:16,208 --> 01:45:19,500
potential controversial takes, you know,

1256
01:45:19,958 --> 01:45:20,958
and keep it as professional as possible.

1257
01:45:21,000 --> 01:45:23,791
And I feel like that kind of works a lot

1258
01:45:23,791 --> 01:45:25,875
in a way. I think it's when you get sort

1259
01:45:25,875 --> 01:45:29,375
of the opinions and and, you know,

1260
01:45:29,375 --> 01:45:31,208
political controversies, controversies,

1261
01:45:31,708 --> 01:45:34,041
where that could go either way, you know,

1262
01:45:34,041 --> 01:45:36,875
with with an institute, you know, but but

1263
01:45:36,875 --> 01:45:38,625
I mean, we're in a creator economy

1264
01:45:38,625 --> 01:45:40,291
worldwide, where it's like, you know, I

1265
01:45:40,291 --> 01:45:41,833
think in the US was like $3.5

1266
01:45:41,958 --> 01:45:44,416
billion people made from the creator

1267
01:45:44,416 --> 01:45:46,666
economy. Now, obviously, that's not all

1268
01:45:46,666 --> 01:45:48,416
science content creators. But I think

1269
01:45:48,416 --> 01:45:50,666
there is an increase in that. I think

1270
01:45:50,666 --> 01:45:51,875
we're starting to see that. And I think

1271
01:45:51,875 --> 01:45:54,250
it just goes with personality and being

1272
01:45:54,250 --> 01:45:55,750
putting yourself out there and being able

1273
01:45:55,750 --> 01:45:57,958
to share and knowing that, to be honest,

1274
01:45:57,958 --> 01:46:01,500
that's just as good of a career as as

1275
01:46:01,500 --> 01:46:03,250
any, you know, and you're still and you

1276
01:46:03,250 --> 01:46:05,208
can still do your science, you know, if

1277
01:46:05,208 --> 01:46:05,958
you can fund your own science.

1278
01:46:06,000 --> 01:46:07,708
And that'd be great. I feel like that's

1279
01:46:07,708 --> 01:46:09,708
where a lot of people are going to try.

1280
01:46:09,708 --> 01:46:11,958
And I feel like we need to put together

1281
01:46:11,958 --> 01:46:15,541
some workshops to be able to have people,

1282
01:46:16,458 --> 01:46:18,750
you know, understand like what that

1283
01:46:18,750 --> 01:46:20,333
takes, you know, from people who are

1284
01:46:20,333 --> 01:46:21,750
already doing if they're willing to share

1285
01:46:21,750 --> 01:46:22,750
and stuff like that.

1286
01:46:22,750 --> 01:46:24,833
So I think that's that becomes an

1287
01:46:24,833 --> 01:46:26,750
interesting aspect of sharing and being

1288
01:46:26,750 --> 01:46:29,166
transparent of what's really like, and

1289
01:46:29,166 --> 01:46:30,291
yeah, the difficulties

1290
01:46:30,291 --> 01:46:30,958
and the challenges, right?

1291
01:46:30,958 --> 01:46:33,416
Yeah, and I think it's almost like a

1292
01:46:33,416 --> 01:46:35,458
responsibility that we have as highly

1293
01:46:35,458 --> 01:46:38,916
informed, educated people to share

1294
01:46:38,916 --> 01:46:40,583
information that is actually factually

1295
01:46:40,583 --> 01:46:44,083
correct. And there are so many people out

1296
01:46:44,083 --> 01:46:45,958
there that cannot say that of themselves.

1297
01:46:46,958 --> 01:46:50,000
True. That's true. I say the biggest the

1298
01:46:50,000 --> 01:46:52,083
biggest hurdle and this has been it's

1299
01:46:52,083 --> 01:46:53,666
still even today with all the social

1300
01:46:53,666 --> 01:46:55,666
media stuff has been like throughout my

1301
01:46:55,666 --> 01:46:58,250
career is that people being able to

1302
01:46:58,250 --> 01:47:00,833
communicate to the average person because

1303
01:47:00,833 --> 01:47:01,875
not everybody's a scientist.

1304
01:47:02,000 --> 01:47:03,500
Now, everybody's had statistics or

1305
01:47:03,500 --> 01:47:06,541
chemistry or whatever or knows the jargon

1306
01:47:06,541 --> 01:47:09,958
and too often we've had this talk before.

1307
01:47:10,541 --> 01:47:13,291
So is that in the future, like now you've

1308
01:47:13,291 --> 01:47:16,375
got to be able to communicate simple, you

1309
01:47:16,375 --> 01:47:18,458
know, you obviously have an interest in

1310
01:47:18,458 --> 01:47:18,958
looking at these little

1311
01:47:18,958 --> 01:47:23,000
is that what you'd like to concentrate on

1312
01:47:23,000 --> 01:47:25,000
scientific? You know what I'm talking

1313
01:47:25,000 --> 01:47:27,375
about? And he's describing the average

1314
01:47:27,375 --> 01:47:29,541
person has discovered new populations. Is

1315
01:47:29,541 --> 01:47:32,541
that where your research topics are

1316
01:47:32,541 --> 01:47:34,333
headed? And so I think communicating to

1317
01:47:34,333 --> 01:47:37,541
the average person and you know, you

1318
01:47:37,541 --> 01:47:39,375
know, I don't mean talking down to him or

1319
01:47:39,375 --> 01:47:41,583
making it simple, but just talk to him in

1320
01:47:41,583 --> 01:47:43,958
layman's terms, really.

1321
01:47:44,833 --> 01:47:46,708
Yeah, and certainly real way that we're

1322
01:47:46,708 --> 01:47:48,500
going to start actually having impact.

1323
01:47:48,916 --> 01:47:51,750
You know, we do the science, but if we're

1324
01:47:51,750 --> 01:47:52,833
only communicating it to other

1325
01:47:52,833 --> 01:47:54,750
scientists, we're never going to have

1326
01:47:54,750 --> 01:47:57,208
actual people on on country on

1327
01:47:57,208 --> 01:47:59,166
board and knowing what to do.

1328
01:47:59,500 --> 01:48:01,833
Exactly. I got to ask you here just one

1329
01:48:01,833 --> 01:48:03,041
more question. Another question here

1330
01:48:03,041 --> 01:48:05,166
before we go is like what? So you just

1331
01:48:05,166 --> 01:48:06,541
came back from Sharks International. I

1332
01:48:06,541 --> 01:48:08,958
know we saw each other there, but that

1333
01:48:08,958 --> 01:48:09,541
was your first Sharks

1334
01:48:09,541 --> 01:48:09,958
International, correct?

1335
01:48:10,958 --> 01:48:13,791
Yeah. What was your impression? How was

1336
01:48:13,791 --> 01:48:17,791
your voice like? I loved it. It was a

1337
01:48:17,791 --> 01:48:19,458
little overwhelming because there's so,

1338
01:48:19,458 --> 01:48:24,041
so, so many people. But yeah, 850 is

1339
01:48:24,041 --> 01:48:27,166
crazy. Wow. Yeah. So it was definitely

1340
01:48:27,166 --> 01:48:29,041
the biggest conference I've ever been to.

1341
01:48:29,708 --> 01:48:32,125
And yeah, for me, it was like a roller

1342
01:48:32,125 --> 01:48:34,291
coaster of emotions. I feel like probably

1343
01:48:34,291 --> 01:48:35,958
other early career people were probably

1344
01:48:35,958 --> 01:48:37,458
in the same boat where some days you're

1345
01:48:37,458 --> 01:48:38,416
feeling like really

1346
01:48:38,416 --> 01:48:39,833
motivated and you know what's

1347
01:48:39,875 --> 01:48:41,791
steps to take next. And then other days

1348
01:48:41,791 --> 01:48:43,583
you're like, wow, all these people are

1349
01:48:43,583 --> 01:48:45,166
doing really cool stuff and I'm currently

1350
01:48:45,166 --> 01:48:48,500
just doing nothing. But all in all, it

1351
01:48:48,500 --> 01:48:50,291
was, you know, I've come back refreshed

1352
01:48:50,291 --> 01:48:53,458
and I've met heaps of people and I have

1353
01:48:53,458 --> 01:48:55,916
ideas of what I can be doing. And just

1354
01:48:55,916 --> 01:48:58,625
being able to be there and like hear from

1355
01:48:58,625 --> 01:49:00,708
people who normally wouldn't really be

1356
01:49:00,708 --> 01:49:03,583
able to get their voice out there. Yeah,

1357
01:49:03,583 --> 01:49:04,458
it was amazing. I learned

1358
01:49:04,458 --> 01:49:05,583
heaps had the best time.

1359
01:49:15,000 --> 01:49:19,750
Yeah, I think so. Just thanks for having me back. Yeah, no, great. Thank you for

1360
01:49:19,750 --> 01:49:20,208
coming on and congratulations again. Congratulations. And the next time we'll

1361
01:49:20,208 --> 01:49:23,500
have you on, I'm sure we'll be talking

1362
01:49:23,500 --> 01:49:24,583
about all the wonderful things you've

1363
01:49:24,583 --> 01:49:24,833
been doing in the meantime. And we appreciate all the work you do.

1364
01:49:36,083 --> 01:49:41,083
And going out into the unknown where some

1365
01:49:41,083 --> 01:49:43,625
people will not go and and being able to

1366
01:49:43,625 --> 01:49:43,833
study these these amazing sharks and in these amazing environments. So we really appreciate you coming on and sharing that with
us. Yeah, and I just give you all. Yeah, I give one last plug like check out the the episode that we're going to be doing.

1367
01:49:43,833 --> 01:49:51,833
Yeah, and I just give you all. Yeah, I

1368
01:49:51,833 --> 01:49:54,666
give one last plug like check out the the

1369
01:49:54,666 --> 01:49:57,500
episode with Julia on the river sharks on

1370
01:49:57,500 --> 01:50:00,458
the my YouTube channel. Law Shark Guy

1371
01:50:00,458 --> 01:50:02,000
searching for law sharks extinct or

1372
01:50:02,000 --> 01:50:04,833
alive. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thank you for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond just podcast. Dave, what did you think like, you know, coming from a lot of different things that you've done, you know, you're going to be able to do that.

1373
01:50:05,125 --> 01:50:09,208
Thanks for joining us on today's episode

1374
01:50:09,208 --> 01:50:11,375
of the Beyond just podcast. Dave, what

1375
01:50:11,375 --> 01:50:13,250
did you think like, you know, coming

1376
01:50:13,250 --> 01:50:15,083
from, you know, somebody you met somebody

1377
01:50:15,083 --> 01:50:17,666
you worked with in the environment while

1378
01:50:17,666 --> 01:50:20,208
she's doing her PhD, it must be nice to

1379
01:50:20,208 --> 01:50:23,083
see her not only achieve the PhD, but you

1380
01:50:23,083 --> 01:50:25,000
know, to be able to discover a new

1381
01:50:25,000 --> 01:50:27,583
population of sharks, you know, that's

1382
01:50:27,583 --> 01:50:30,000
that's a that's pretty cool. That's a

1383
01:50:30,000 --> 01:50:31,500
pretty big thing. Like when you've just

1384
01:50:31,500 --> 01:50:32,833
first starting out your career, right?

1385
01:50:32,833 --> 01:50:35,500
Oh, yeah, no, as I kind of said during

1386
01:50:35,500 --> 01:50:37,791
the during the episodes, like, you know,

1387
01:50:37,791 --> 01:50:39,375
she worked on something, you know, her

1388
01:50:39,375 --> 01:50:42,500
really thanks to her advisor, Pete kind,

1389
01:50:43,000 --> 01:50:45,791
you know, she worked on something nobody

1390
01:50:45,791 --> 01:50:47,416
else really worked on. There's a few

1391
01:50:47,416 --> 01:50:48,958
there's been a few people, you know, Pete

1392
01:50:48,958 --> 01:50:50,250
was really the guy Pete was really the

1393
01:50:50,250 --> 01:50:51,791
pioneer in the whole field as far as with

1394
01:50:51,791 --> 01:50:53,875
those river sharks and really laid the

1395
01:50:53,875 --> 01:50:56,375
groundwork and she came in and took over

1396
01:50:56,375 --> 01:50:58,166
the project that Pete was running. And of

1397
01:50:58,166 --> 01:50:59,125
course, he was her supervisor.

1398
01:50:59,833 --> 01:51:02,500
But you know, really kind of like was

1399
01:51:02,500 --> 01:51:04,208
working with these little known species.

1400
01:51:04,875 --> 01:51:07,958
And she said, you know, she was going

1401
01:51:07,958 --> 01:51:10,166
places where most people won't go because

1402
01:51:10,166 --> 01:51:13,333
it's a hard I've been there. It's a hard

1403
01:51:13,333 --> 01:51:15,583
environment to work into, you know, just,

1404
01:51:15,583 --> 01:51:16,708
you know, we talked a lot about the

1405
01:51:16,708 --> 01:51:17,875
crocodiles in the episode,

1406
01:51:17,875 --> 01:51:18,833
but you got other things.

1407
01:51:18,875 --> 01:51:21,708
It's just you've got it's just it's a

1408
01:51:21,708 --> 01:51:23,500
it's a hard, it's a harsh environment.

1409
01:51:23,500 --> 01:51:24,708
There's just not a lot of yeah, it is

1410
01:51:24,708 --> 01:51:27,625
there. If you get into trouble, there's

1411
01:51:27,625 --> 01:51:28,958
really nobody coming even though you're

1412
01:51:28,958 --> 01:51:30,000
in Australia, there's really no one

1413
01:51:30,000 --> 01:51:32,583
coming right away to for help. You know,

1414
01:51:32,583 --> 01:51:35,166
you got to be efficient. You got to you

1415
01:51:35,166 --> 01:51:36,791
got to kind of be be always

1416
01:51:36,791 --> 01:51:37,833
be aware of what's going on.

1417
01:51:38,833 --> 01:51:41,750
And and so she definitely has that that

1418
01:51:41,750 --> 01:51:44,875
that gene to want to do that. And you

1419
01:51:44,875 --> 01:51:47,625
just see it. You see it with her with her

1420
01:51:47,625 --> 01:51:50,375
with her research. Yeah. Yeah. It's

1421
01:51:50,375 --> 01:51:52,208
pretty incredible to be able to see that

1422
01:51:52,208 --> 01:51:54,750
to be able to be a part of that. And for

1423
01:51:54,750 --> 01:51:56,666
her, like, you know, she seems like she's

1424
01:51:56,666 --> 01:51:58,541
following in your footsteps, you know,

1425
01:51:58,541 --> 01:51:59,791
your career first steps looking at she's

1426
01:51:59,791 --> 01:52:01,583
interested in taxonomy. She's interested

1427
01:52:01,583 --> 01:52:03,750
in in in searching for these lost sharks

1428
01:52:03,750 --> 01:52:06,125
and in representing those sharks that are

1429
01:52:06,125 --> 01:52:06,833
not really represented or not much.

1430
01:52:06,833 --> 01:52:11,000
Known about. I feel like that's that's a

1431
01:52:11,000 --> 01:52:12,625
really interesting career to follow. But

1432
01:52:12,625 --> 01:52:14,000
there's some challenges with that. Right,

1433
01:52:14,000 --> 01:52:16,291
Dave? Like there's, you know, funding is

1434
01:52:16,291 --> 01:52:19,041
difficult to look for that. And for those

1435
01:52:19,041 --> 01:52:21,166
for those who are, you know, as we give

1436
01:52:21,166 --> 01:52:23,500
that that, you know, we've always give

1437
01:52:23,500 --> 01:52:27,291
that that that advice of like looking for

1438
01:52:27,291 --> 01:52:28,875
something new and discovering something

1439
01:52:28,875 --> 01:52:31,583
new, how does that work with funding when

1440
01:52:31,583 --> 01:52:33,666
funding is not often found, like, how do

1441
01:52:33,666 --> 01:52:35,291
you make a case for looking for something

1442
01:52:35,291 --> 01:52:35,833
new in the first? You've done a project where you're looking for something new.

1443
01:52:36,041 --> 01:52:38,208
In the first, you've done it before. How

1444
01:52:38,208 --> 01:52:40,041
do you do that? And how do a lot of these

1445
01:52:40,041 --> 01:52:42,000
younger people do that? You know, it's

1446
01:52:42,000 --> 01:52:43,958
the easy route just to take some that

1447
01:52:43,958 --> 01:52:45,791
whether they're funding the more

1448
01:52:45,791 --> 01:52:46,458
difficult route,

1449
01:52:46,458 --> 01:52:47,666
which is what I've taken.

1450
01:52:48,041 --> 01:52:50,250
You just you just grovel around trying to

1451
01:52:50,250 --> 01:52:52,208
you just pull a little bit here, a little

1452
01:52:52,208 --> 01:52:54,458
bit there. I was fortunate to got on, you

1453
01:52:54,458 --> 01:52:56,000
know, I've been connected with the Save

1454
01:52:56,000 --> 01:52:59,666
Our Seas Foundation, which is huge in

1455
01:52:59,666 --> 01:53:00,333
terms of supporting

1456
01:53:00,333 --> 01:53:01,291
this type of research.

1457
01:53:01,833 --> 01:53:03,708
This curtain thing telling the story

1458
01:53:03,708 --> 01:53:05,750
about these little law sharks, it was

1459
01:53:05,750 --> 01:53:07,166
really amazing and doing the storytelling

1460
01:53:07,166 --> 01:53:09,291
thing, as I've mentioned, for me, as kind

1461
01:53:09,291 --> 01:53:10,750
of a new area, but it's kind of it's been

1462
01:53:10,750 --> 01:53:12,583
new skill, new thing I've been learning

1463
01:53:12,583 --> 01:53:14,125
about working with you and

1464
01:53:14,125 --> 01:53:15,416
working with Denise Sotomayor.

1465
01:53:16,875 --> 01:53:18,750
But I also want to say, like, you know,

1466
01:53:18,750 --> 01:53:20,625
the people I have in there, the feature

1467
01:53:20,625 --> 01:53:24,166
like, like Julia here, Adriana Savanna,

1468
01:53:24,166 --> 01:53:26,000
Adriana Pestana, who's been on the

1469
01:53:26,000 --> 01:53:27,958
podcast, also Naya Simone,

1470
01:53:27,958 --> 01:53:29,291
who's been on the next episode.

1471
01:53:30,000 --> 01:53:31,000
You know, they weren't just sort of

1472
01:53:31,000 --> 01:53:33,166
random people. These are people that I

1473
01:53:33,166 --> 01:53:35,166
know, and I know they have that little

1474
01:53:35,166 --> 01:53:36,250
flair for looking for

1475
01:53:36,250 --> 01:53:38,291
little known lost shark species.

1476
01:53:39,125 --> 01:53:41,500
And so they're kind of people, they're

1477
01:53:41,500 --> 01:53:42,958
people I kind of knew from, you know,

1478
01:53:42,958 --> 01:53:44,875
just through my through my just certain

1479
01:53:44,875 --> 01:53:47,291
travels and everything. And so they were

1480
01:53:47,291 --> 01:53:48,833
kind of like, I wanted to work with them

1481
01:53:48,833 --> 01:53:50,000
because I knew they'd do a good job.

1482
01:53:50,583 --> 01:53:54,000
And so and so that was really kind of

1483
01:53:54,000 --> 01:53:55,958
they already had that that flair for that

1484
01:53:55,958 --> 01:53:58,833
law shark exploration thing. And so it

1485
01:53:58,833 --> 01:54:00,208
was good. It was good working with them.

1486
01:54:00,208 --> 01:54:02,041
And Julie was terrific to work with in

1487
01:54:02,041 --> 01:54:03,833
the field as well as Adriana and Naya.

1488
01:54:03,833 --> 01:54:06,916
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Well,

1489
01:54:06,916 --> 01:54:08,666
it was a great episode. I really loved

1490
01:54:08,666 --> 01:54:11,166
it. It was great to catch up with with

1491
01:54:11,166 --> 01:54:12,666
Julia. We'll definitely catch up with her

1492
01:54:12,666 --> 01:54:14,791
again. And we thank Julia. We'll put her

1493
01:54:14,791 --> 01:54:16,000
socials in the show notes so

1494
01:54:16,000 --> 01:54:16,916
you can get a hold of that.

1495
01:54:17,291 --> 01:54:18,833
But we want to thank everybody for

1496
01:54:18,833 --> 01:54:20,625
listening to this episode of the how to

1497
01:54:20,625 --> 01:54:23,333
protect the ocean. Never mind. But before

1498
01:54:23,333 --> 01:54:25,208
we go, Dave, if people want to get ahold

1499
01:54:25,208 --> 01:54:25,833
of you, how would they do so?

1500
01:54:25,833 --> 01:54:29,083
Go to you can find me at law shark guy on

1501
01:54:29,083 --> 01:54:30,791
Instagram and please go to the YouTube

1502
01:54:30,791 --> 01:54:33,166
channel at law shark guy. Please check

1503
01:54:33,166 --> 01:54:35,375
out the series searching for law sharks

1504
01:54:35,375 --> 01:54:37,333
extinct or live episode five. The River

1505
01:54:37,333 --> 01:54:39,625
Sharks has features. Julia, please

1506
01:54:39,625 --> 01:54:41,791
subscribe. If you like the content and

1507
01:54:41,791 --> 01:54:42,833
there would be more content coming soon.

1508
01:54:42,833 --> 01:54:46,833
And of course, if you want to interact

1509
01:54:46,833 --> 01:54:48,541
with us at any point, you can also go to

1510
01:54:48,541 --> 01:54:50,583
the beyond jobs pod on not only on

1511
01:54:50,583 --> 01:54:53,041
YouTube, but also on Instagram. We'd love

1512
01:54:53,041 --> 01:54:54,875
to hear from you on these episodes. We're

1513
01:54:54,875 --> 01:54:56,791
getting comments from your last episode

1514
01:54:56,791 --> 01:54:59,041
about what people want to hear. So

1515
01:54:59,041 --> 01:55:01,125
that'll be a lot of fun when we do that

1516
01:55:01,125 --> 01:55:02,500
in the future. But thank you very much

1517
01:55:02,500 --> 01:55:04,416
for joining us, everybody. This has been

1518
01:55:04,416 --> 01:55:05,958
another wonderful episode of the beyond

1519
01:55:05,958 --> 01:55:07,416
jobs podcast. Have a great day. We'll

1520
01:55:07,416 --> 01:55:08,166
talk to you next time

1521
01:55:08,166 --> 01:55:09,083
and happy conservation.