What a 5-Week Shark Trip Revealed About the Future of Shark Science and Conservation

1
01:00:02,541 --> 01:00:03,125
Welcome back to the

2
01:00:03,125 --> 01:00:04,458
Beyond Jaws podcast everybody.

3
01:00:04,750 --> 01:00:05,291
We've got a very

4
01:00:05,291 --> 01:00:06,833
special episode last week.

5
01:00:07,375 --> 01:00:08,750
We had me on the podcast.

6
01:00:08,958 --> 01:00:09,750
I was the focus because

7
01:00:09,750 --> 01:00:11,041
of a new job that I got

8
01:00:11,416 --> 01:00:12,291
back in April and I've

9
01:00:12,291 --> 01:00:13,500
been working for Pisces Oceans

10
01:00:13,500 --> 01:00:14,958
ever since, bit of a dream job.

11
01:00:15,208 --> 01:00:16,250
Want to talk about that a

12
01:00:16,250 --> 01:00:17,791
little bit here on the podcast

13
01:00:17,958 --> 01:00:19,416
because you know, it's what we do.

14
01:00:19,416 --> 01:00:20,500
We talk about Jaws, we talk

15
01:00:20,500 --> 01:00:22,250
about updates in our lives,

16
01:00:22,250 --> 01:00:23,458
especially between Dave and I.

17
01:00:23,458 --> 01:00:24,708
And Dave, we're gonna

18
01:00:24,708 --> 01:00:26,041
be focusing on you today

19
01:00:26,166 --> 01:00:28,500
because you just got back from a trip,

20
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:31,291
I think it was about five weeks long

21
01:00:31,291 --> 01:00:33,291
where you went to South Africa

22
01:00:33,583 --> 01:00:34,375
and you also went to Sri

23
01:00:34,375 --> 01:00:35,750
Lanka for Sharks International.

24
01:00:36,083 --> 01:00:38,041
So we're gonna run down some of the

25
01:00:38,041 --> 01:00:39,125
significance of that trip

26
01:00:39,583 --> 01:00:40,666
and you even got to dive in

27
01:00:40,666 --> 01:00:42,000
the Maldives, which is great.

28
01:00:42,375 --> 01:00:45,500
You know, off season, however, as you

29
01:00:45,500 --> 01:00:46,541
said, as you will say,

30
01:00:47,125 --> 01:00:48,541
pretty, pretty terrific diving.

31
01:00:48,958 --> 01:00:50,625
So a lot of fun. I can't

32
01:00:50,625 --> 01:00:51,833
wait to get into it all.

33
01:00:52,291 --> 01:00:53,500
First of all, welcome

34
01:00:53,500 --> 01:00:54,708
back. How are you feeling?

35
01:00:55,291 --> 01:00:58,166
Uh, a little wrecked, but after after

36
01:00:58,166 --> 01:01:01,083
going to five weeks, five countries,

37
01:01:01,375 --> 01:01:03,750
three continents and I didn't want to

38
01:01:03,750 --> 01:01:04,750
think about how many hours

39
01:01:04,750 --> 01:01:06,291
I spent on a flight or an airport.

40
01:01:08,250 --> 01:01:09,000
It's just kind of just want

41
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:10,333
to blot that out of my mind.

42
01:01:10,625 --> 01:01:11,875
But it was an awesome

43
01:01:11,875 --> 01:01:15,416
trip. I just I can't can't.

44
01:01:15,416 --> 01:01:16,916
Well, I'll tell you about it. I can't say

45
01:01:16,916 --> 01:01:17,916
enough, but I'm going to talk.

46
01:01:17,916 --> 01:01:19,041
So I'll probably say more than you.

47
01:01:19,041 --> 01:01:20,875
You'll say more. I'll say it all there.

48
01:01:21,500 --> 01:01:24,000
So right now. So let's just let's just

49
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:24,708
break it down, Dave.

50
01:01:25,375 --> 01:01:27,916
I went five weeks away. Why don't you

51
01:01:27,916 --> 01:01:30,041
just talk about like purpose of the trip,

52
01:01:30,041 --> 01:01:31,458
where you went first, where you went

53
01:01:31,458 --> 01:01:33,625
last, and then we'll kind of dive into.

54
01:01:33,625 --> 01:01:34,875
We'll start off with South Africa and

55
01:01:34,875 --> 01:01:36,208
then we'll dive into the national.

56
01:01:36,875 --> 01:01:39,333
Well, I I had my start off the trip.

57
01:01:39,333 --> 01:01:41,291
I went to South Africa for a couple of

58
01:01:41,291 --> 01:01:44,208
weeks and the South Africa trip was part

59
01:01:44,208 --> 01:01:47,083
of a Save Our Seas Foundation and an

60
01:01:47,083 --> 01:01:48,791
ocean census grants that I had

61
01:01:49,833 --> 01:01:52,958
in partnership with the also with the

62
01:01:52,958 --> 01:01:54,666
South African Institute

63
01:01:54,666 --> 01:01:55,708
for aquatic biodiversity.

64
01:01:56,916 --> 01:01:58,583
And I've been working on it.

65
01:01:58,583 --> 01:01:59,500
I've been working in South Africa,

66
01:01:59,500 --> 01:02:01,583
obviously, for a long time for 40 years.

67
01:02:02,041 --> 01:02:03,666
This is my 40th year, by the way, since I

68
01:02:03,666 --> 01:02:04,916
first arrived in South Africa.

69
01:02:05,250 --> 01:02:07,791
So amazing kind of a bit of been turned

70
01:02:07,791 --> 01:02:08,500
into a bit of a

71
01:02:08,500 --> 01:02:10,083
journey already for the year.

72
01:02:10,500 --> 01:02:12,791
Yeah. But it's kind of neat going back to

73
01:02:12,791 --> 01:02:14,333
the South African

74
01:02:14,333 --> 01:02:15,791
Institute for Aquatic Biodiversity,

75
01:02:16,083 --> 01:02:18,083
which used to be called the J.L.B. Smith

76
01:02:18,083 --> 01:02:19,958
Institute of Ictheology when I was a

77
01:02:19,958 --> 01:02:21,250
student back in the day.

78
01:02:22,250 --> 01:02:25,000
And those that don't know, J.L.B. Smith

79
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,375
was the one who described the Coelacanth

80
01:02:28,375 --> 01:02:31,750
back in 1938, the old four legs.

81
01:02:32,541 --> 01:02:34,958
Yeah. And it was a it was a fish that was

82
01:02:34,958 --> 01:02:35,958
thought to be an

83
01:02:35,958 --> 01:02:37,750
extinct for 70 million years.

84
01:02:38,333 --> 01:02:40,416
And specimen turned up off

85
01:02:40,416 --> 01:02:41,791
East London, South Africa.

86
01:02:42,041 --> 01:02:45,583
And Marjorie Courtney Latimer got ahold

87
01:02:45,583 --> 01:02:47,791
of the fish from the fishing captain and

88
01:02:47,791 --> 01:02:49,875
contacted J.L.B. Smith.

89
01:02:49,875 --> 01:02:51,083
They didn't know initially didn't know

90
01:02:51,083 --> 01:02:52,000
what the hell they had.

91
01:02:52,875 --> 01:02:53,666
And but they eventually

92
01:02:53,666 --> 01:02:55,166
figured out it was a Coelacanth.

93
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:59,375
And and such began a journey that took

94
01:02:59,375 --> 01:03:01,250
them till the 1950s.

95
01:03:01,458 --> 01:03:02,666
I was interrupted with World War Two

96
01:03:02,666 --> 01:03:03,291
before they found

97
01:03:03,291 --> 01:03:04,833
another specimen off the Camar.

98
01:03:04,833 --> 01:03:06,375
So anyway, that's just a little bit of

99
01:03:06,375 --> 01:03:08,000
the history there of

100
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:09,833
a SIA, which is South.

101
01:03:09,875 --> 01:03:10,916
That again, the South African Institute

102
01:03:10,916 --> 01:03:12,500
for Aquatic Biodiversity.

103
01:03:12,500 --> 01:03:14,083
They changed the name had been changed.

104
01:03:14,750 --> 01:03:17,791
And his just a little footnote, J.L.B.

105
01:03:17,791 --> 01:03:20,125
Smith's wife, Margaret Smith, when I

106
01:03:20,125 --> 01:03:21,291
first went to South Africa

107
01:03:21,291 --> 01:03:23,375
in 1986, she was still alive.

108
01:03:23,375 --> 01:03:24,791
And I actually got to know her.

109
01:03:25,166 --> 01:03:27,625
And I house sat for her and her sister.

110
01:03:27,875 --> 01:03:28,541
She heard they were

111
01:03:28,541 --> 01:03:29,833
in her 70s at the time.

112
01:03:30,625 --> 01:03:32,458
And her sister was a had was a retired

113
01:03:32,458 --> 01:03:33,500
vaudeville performer.

114
01:03:33,500 --> 01:03:35,000
And I'm sure the young people are going,

115
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:36,125
what's a vaudeville performer?

116
01:03:36,750 --> 01:03:37,625
So I don't even know that.

117
01:03:38,083 --> 01:03:40,041
OK, basically, basically, you get up on

118
01:03:40,041 --> 01:03:41,375
stage and entertain people.

119
01:03:41,375 --> 01:03:43,083
Be like going to a concert.

120
01:03:43,416 --> 01:03:45,208
Now, yeah, it's

121
01:03:45,208 --> 01:03:46,666
comedy, it's entertainment.

122
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:48,416
It's all kinds of different stuff.

123
01:03:48,416 --> 01:03:49,875
People because back in the day, you

124
01:03:49,875 --> 01:03:51,458
didn't have like, you know, you didn't

125
01:03:51,458 --> 01:03:53,375
have like videos and movies and stuff.

126
01:03:53,375 --> 01:03:54,791
So people just go there and get up on

127
01:03:54,791 --> 01:03:56,916
stage and entertain, entertain

128
01:03:56,916 --> 01:03:58,416
the talent show, if you will.

129
01:03:58,708 --> 01:04:00,000
Yeah. Sort of like if you think of some

130
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:01,666
of the old people you may know the names

131
01:04:01,666 --> 01:04:03,458
like Bob Hope and some people.

132
01:04:04,083 --> 01:04:05,000
They started out as

133
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:05,875
vaudeville performers.

134
01:04:06,125 --> 01:04:07,958
Charlie Chaplin, these guys.

135
01:04:08,250 --> 01:04:09,583
And so they would go look it up.

136
01:04:09,583 --> 01:04:11,875
But anyway, anyway, so Margaret and her

137
01:04:11,875 --> 01:04:13,125
sister were had a home and

138
01:04:13,125 --> 01:04:14,375
they're well into their 70s.

139
01:04:14,375 --> 01:04:14,875
They used to have

140
01:04:14,875 --> 01:04:17,125
students would house it.

141
01:04:17,125 --> 01:04:18,833
They had a cottage that would stay there

142
01:04:18,833 --> 01:04:20,791
in case there was any, you know, help

143
01:04:20,791 --> 01:04:22,416
problems with them, you know, having a

144
01:04:22,416 --> 01:04:23,250
younger person there.

145
01:04:23,250 --> 01:04:24,875
And so I ended up house out

146
01:04:24,875 --> 01:04:26,125
there for a little bit for him.

147
01:04:26,125 --> 01:04:28,583
And it was kind of cool as a young guy in

148
01:04:28,583 --> 01:04:31,083
my 20s and and Margaret and her sister,

149
01:04:31,083 --> 01:04:33,375
Flora, had come over literally with tea

150
01:04:33,375 --> 01:04:34,166
and crumpets every

151
01:04:34,166 --> 01:04:35,583
night around seven o'clock.

152
01:04:35,791 --> 01:04:37,541
And she'd share some stories.

153
01:04:37,750 --> 01:04:39,458
And she was a pretty amazing woman.

154
01:04:39,458 --> 01:04:42,083
The stuff she was doing back in the 30s

155
01:04:42,083 --> 01:04:45,750
and 40s and 50s, you know, as a young

156
01:04:45,750 --> 01:04:48,166
woman in South Africa, they they'd

157
01:04:48,166 --> 01:04:53,458
venture to Mozambique or Tanzania or

158
01:04:53,458 --> 01:04:56,458
Angola, Namibia to go on collecting.

159
01:04:56,750 --> 01:04:59,875
And J.L.B. was about 20, at least 20

160
01:04:59,875 --> 01:05:01,000
years older than her.

161
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:01,791
And so he was and he

162
01:05:01,791 --> 01:05:02,666
wasn't in great health.

163
01:05:02,708 --> 01:05:04,916
So she actually had to do a lot of the

164
01:05:04,916 --> 01:05:06,375
diving and swimming and stuff.

165
01:05:06,916 --> 01:05:08,916
And she was actually a very accomplished

166
01:05:08,916 --> 01:05:10,833
swimmer when she was a young woman.

167
01:05:11,333 --> 01:05:14,041
And so she used to do used to

168
01:05:14,041 --> 01:05:15,458
go out and collect the fish.

169
01:05:15,458 --> 01:05:16,166
And she'd tell me

170
01:05:16,166 --> 01:05:18,125
these stories about that.

171
01:05:18,125 --> 01:05:18,916
Go out in these beautiful

172
01:05:18,916 --> 01:05:20,791
coral reefs in like Mozambique.

173
01:05:21,791 --> 01:05:22,916
And they and this is how

174
01:05:22,916 --> 01:05:23,833
they used to collect fish.

175
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:25,000
So, you know, young

176
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:26,208
people don't be horrified.

177
01:05:26,333 --> 01:05:29,291
But they used to dynamite the reefs and

178
01:05:29,291 --> 01:05:30,041
then the dead fish

179
01:05:30,041 --> 01:05:31,833
would float up at the time.

180
01:05:31,875 --> 01:05:32,500
Any better.

181
01:05:32,833 --> 01:05:34,000
They was all they had to do.

182
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:34,541
Because I mean, there

183
01:05:34,541 --> 01:05:36,541
was no no luxuries at all.

184
01:05:36,541 --> 01:05:37,708
I mean, you're out there camping.

185
01:05:38,625 --> 01:05:40,125
And so she'd go.

186
01:05:40,125 --> 01:05:41,000
She told me the story.

187
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:42,041
She'd go diving around.

188
01:05:42,041 --> 01:05:43,875
She says, yeah, you know, Dave, all these

189
01:05:43,875 --> 01:05:45,208
sharks would start showing up and

190
01:05:45,208 --> 01:05:47,791
swimming around and be looking at J.L.B.

191
01:05:47,791 --> 01:05:49,125
going like, is it OK

192
01:05:49,125 --> 01:05:50,166
for me to be in the water?

193
01:05:50,166 --> 01:05:51,166
And she goes, oh, don't worry, sharks

194
01:05:51,166 --> 01:05:52,041
don't bother people.

195
01:05:53,291 --> 01:05:55,166
And she goes and she and she looked at me

196
01:05:55,166 --> 01:05:56,750
like, you know, like, you know, just

197
01:05:56,750 --> 01:05:58,791
perfect without skipping a beat and go

198
01:05:58,791 --> 01:06:00,416
like, what do you think, Dave?

199
01:06:00,416 --> 01:06:02,583
Should I have been worried? And I say,

200
01:06:02,583 --> 01:06:04,000
well, my attitude is if they're bigger

201
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:04,708
than me, I'd get the

202
01:06:04,708 --> 01:06:05,500
hell out of the water.

203
01:06:05,708 --> 01:06:08,083
But you know, you made it.

204
01:06:08,541 --> 01:06:11,500
So so I have scientists as well.

205
01:06:12,041 --> 01:06:13,041
Yeah. She was an illustrator.

206
01:06:13,500 --> 01:06:15,958
If you look at like, yeah, she was she

207
01:06:15,958 --> 01:06:16,333
was actually your

208
01:06:16,333 --> 01:06:17,416
background was in chemistry.

209
01:06:18,333 --> 01:06:19,750
And actually, J.L.B.

210
01:06:19,750 --> 01:06:21,250
Smith was a chemist as well.

211
01:06:22,250 --> 01:06:24,375
She is the backstory.

212
01:06:24,375 --> 01:06:26,291
She was as she was a chemistry student of

213
01:06:26,291 --> 01:06:27,250
his is how they met.

214
01:06:27,833 --> 01:06:29,208
So back in the day.

215
01:06:29,291 --> 01:06:31,750
So it's kind of an interesting story.

216
01:06:31,750 --> 01:06:33,500
Sometimes I'll definitely maybe come on

217
01:06:33,500 --> 01:06:34,208
sometime and just share

218
01:06:34,208 --> 01:06:36,000
more of that whole backstory.

219
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:37,583
I've shared parts of it before, but it's

220
01:06:37,583 --> 01:06:38,458
kind of interesting, just

221
01:06:38,458 --> 01:06:39,625
a bit of the history there.

222
01:06:40,041 --> 01:06:43,333
Yeah. And then so I've kept my

223
01:06:43,333 --> 01:06:45,250
relationship with with now,

224
01:06:45,250 --> 01:06:48,083
SIAB for all these years and I go back as

225
01:06:48,083 --> 01:06:50,750
often as I can because I'm a research

226
01:06:50,750 --> 01:06:52,791
associate there and continue working on

227
01:06:52,791 --> 01:06:53,625
the in the collection.

228
01:06:54,541 --> 01:06:56,125
So before you before you go on, what does

229
01:06:56,125 --> 01:06:57,291
it mean to be a research associate?

230
01:06:57,458 --> 01:06:59,083
Is that like a junk professor in a way?

231
01:06:59,458 --> 01:07:00,083
Yeah, it's like an adjunct.

232
01:07:00,791 --> 01:07:01,875
Basically, it means you have an

233
01:07:01,875 --> 01:07:03,541
affiliation, but they don't pay anything.

234
01:07:03,958 --> 01:07:07,166
Right. So when you go there, you can you

235
01:07:07,166 --> 01:07:07,666
can do some

236
01:07:07,666 --> 01:07:09,416
experiments and things like that.

237
01:07:09,416 --> 01:07:10,333
Right. I go into the

238
01:07:10,333 --> 01:07:11,166
fish collection there.

239
01:07:11,166 --> 01:07:12,625
They they're basically like one of the

240
01:07:12,625 --> 01:07:14,750
one of the two main national fish

241
01:07:14,750 --> 01:07:15,958
collections in the country.

242
01:07:16,416 --> 01:07:18,500
That and what used to be the South

243
01:07:18,500 --> 01:07:19,875
African Museum or now it's

244
01:07:19,875 --> 01:07:21,333
called a Zico in Cape Town.

245
01:07:21,916 --> 01:07:23,250
Those are the two main facilities and

246
01:07:23,250 --> 01:07:25,166
they have it's an amazing place.

247
01:07:25,250 --> 01:07:27,958
They got just historical stuff, archival

248
01:07:27,958 --> 01:07:30,666
stuff, research stuff there that, you

249
01:07:30,666 --> 01:07:33,583
know, just from, you know, over 150 years

250
01:07:33,583 --> 01:07:34,333
ago, just those

251
01:07:34,333 --> 01:07:36,750
collected back in the day.

252
01:07:36,750 --> 01:07:38,500
And a lot of South Africa's collection,

253
01:07:38,500 --> 01:07:42,375
they're important type species are

254
01:07:42,375 --> 01:07:45,208
actually either at SIAB or in Cape Town.

255
01:07:45,875 --> 01:07:47,333
So it's kind of a good place to go to do

256
01:07:47,333 --> 01:07:50,333
research and and they're connected with

257
01:07:50,333 --> 01:07:51,208
the university with

258
01:07:51,208 --> 01:07:52,166
the Rhodes University.

259
01:07:53,208 --> 01:07:55,000
I think they're autonomous, but they have

260
01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:56,458
a lot of students that go to Rhodes that

261
01:07:56,458 --> 01:07:58,000
are in the Department of ICH theology and

262
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:00,000
fishery sciences, which is where I was

263
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:01,375
technically affiliated with.

264
01:08:01,875 --> 01:08:03,500
But then my professor was connected.

265
01:08:03,833 --> 01:08:05,791
He was a he worked for for

266
01:08:05,791 --> 01:08:07,791
a SIAB or JLB at the time.

267
01:08:08,125 --> 01:08:09,541
Gotcha. And so, yeah, so

268
01:08:09,541 --> 01:08:10,583
I've had this affiliation.

269
01:08:10,916 --> 01:08:13,083
I don't say I don't get paid, but I get I

270
01:08:13,083 --> 01:08:14,333
get some accommodation.

271
01:08:14,541 --> 01:08:17,333
Maybe when I go down there and it's kind

272
01:08:17,333 --> 01:08:18,416
of neat now to go down there.

273
01:08:18,416 --> 01:08:19,750
I still do research, very active.

274
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:22,166
But I also I'm kind of training a lot of

275
01:08:22,166 --> 01:08:24,708
the young South Africans and other young

276
01:08:24,708 --> 01:08:25,875
people from East Africa

277
01:08:25,875 --> 01:08:27,000
kind of training them in

278
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:29,833
Chondrykthian taxonomy and systematics.

279
01:08:30,666 --> 01:08:32,583
And so kind of which is, you know, it's

280
01:08:32,583 --> 01:08:35,000
not a obviously is a very small field.

281
01:08:35,250 --> 01:08:36,000
Not a lot of not a lot

282
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:37,041
of people go into it.

283
01:08:37,041 --> 01:08:39,250
But, you know, right now I'm really the

284
01:08:39,250 --> 01:08:40,458
main person still there

285
01:08:40,458 --> 01:08:41,708
doing that type of research.

286
01:08:41,708 --> 01:08:43,291
And so it's kind of fun working with the

287
01:08:43,291 --> 01:08:46,000
young people and training them that and.

288
01:08:47,416 --> 01:08:48,166
You know, say thanks.

289
01:08:48,500 --> 01:08:49,000
Go ahead.

290
01:08:49,333 --> 01:08:51,000
Sorry, I was just say what's the benefit

291
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:54,583
like for someone now to become like a

292
01:08:54,583 --> 01:08:57,083
taxonomist in that in the way that you

293
01:08:57,083 --> 01:08:58,791
are like is like from a career

294
01:08:58,791 --> 01:09:00,333
standpoint, like obviously you've been

295
01:09:00,333 --> 01:09:02,041
you've had an illustrious career where

296
01:09:02,041 --> 01:09:04,083
you've been able to describe discover and

297
01:09:04,083 --> 01:09:05,833
describe in over 50 species.

298
01:09:06,708 --> 01:09:07,250
You've you've

299
01:09:07,250 --> 01:09:08,500
traveled all over the world.

300
01:09:09,333 --> 01:09:10,333
You have all these, you

301
01:09:10,333 --> 01:09:11,375
know, these affiliations.

302
01:09:11,375 --> 01:09:13,291
If someone was building a career right

303
01:09:13,291 --> 01:09:15,041
now, like listening to this, we know

304
01:09:15,041 --> 01:09:16,583
there's a lot of young people who are

305
01:09:16,583 --> 01:09:18,375
listening to this because you met them at

306
01:09:18,375 --> 01:09:19,000
Sharks International.

307
01:09:19,708 --> 01:09:20,291
And they love the

308
01:09:20,291 --> 01:09:21,500
podcast, which we appreciate.

309
01:09:22,708 --> 01:09:23,666
But if they're listening to this and

310
01:09:23,666 --> 01:09:24,666
they're like they're trying to find their

311
01:09:24,666 --> 01:09:27,416
avenue into, you know, sharks, like just

312
01:09:27,416 --> 01:09:29,208
shark science in general, would you

313
01:09:29,208 --> 01:09:30,750
recommend, you know, people

314
01:09:30,750 --> 01:09:33,125
fall within this this category?

315
01:09:33,875 --> 01:09:36,208
Is it like a one that not necessarily

316
01:09:36,208 --> 01:09:38,291
pays off like a crazy amount, but

317
01:09:38,291 --> 01:09:39,625
something that somebody can actually have

318
01:09:39,625 --> 01:09:40,791
a career in these days?

319
01:09:40,958 --> 01:09:41,958
It's really tough

320
01:09:41,958 --> 01:09:44,041
because just nobody wants to.

321
01:09:44,791 --> 01:09:47,208
There's a lot of room in this field for

322
01:09:47,208 --> 01:09:48,583
this type of type of

323
01:09:48,583 --> 01:09:50,166
research because nobody's doing it.

324
01:09:50,791 --> 01:09:52,708
So it's a why it's a wide open field.

325
01:09:52,708 --> 01:09:53,291
And it's one of these

326
01:09:53,291 --> 01:09:54,666
areas that you could go into.

327
01:09:54,666 --> 01:09:55,291
You could make a name

328
01:09:55,291 --> 01:09:57,541
for yourself pretty easily.

329
01:09:58,083 --> 01:09:59,208
I say, well, I don't want to

330
01:09:59,208 --> 01:10:00,750
say easily with a lot of work.

331
01:10:00,750 --> 01:10:02,208
You can make a name for yourself in this

332
01:10:02,208 --> 01:10:04,208
field because there's not many there's

333
01:10:04,208 --> 01:10:05,708
not many people, younger

334
01:10:05,708 --> 01:10:07,041
people coming up in the field.

335
01:10:07,041 --> 01:10:07,500
There's a couple.

336
01:10:08,041 --> 01:10:10,708
But there's not there's really not many.

337
01:10:10,708 --> 01:10:12,291
There's not a lot of positions available.

338
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:14,416
You know, if you're South African, you

339
01:10:14,416 --> 01:10:16,458
almost have to get on with like a museum,

340
01:10:16,458 --> 01:10:19,166
whether it's SIAB or the Zico or the

341
01:10:19,166 --> 01:10:19,708
Oceanographic

342
01:10:19,708 --> 01:10:21,291
Research Institute in Durban.

343
01:10:21,291 --> 01:10:22,041
There's a few places

344
01:10:22,041 --> 01:10:23,416
you could get in there.

345
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:27,041
And the chances are, you know, like I if

346
01:10:27,041 --> 01:10:28,250
you listen to the podcast, I didn't start

347
01:10:28,250 --> 01:10:29,708
out as a taxonomist.

348
01:10:29,708 --> 01:10:31,125
I was a marine ecologist with my

349
01:10:31,125 --> 01:10:33,083
background and most of it I was doing it.

350
01:10:33,125 --> 01:10:36,166
But in my case, Leonard Capagno and other

351
01:10:36,166 --> 01:10:38,791
people I knew, but mainly Capagno, you

352
01:10:38,791 --> 01:10:39,541
know, they were like

353
01:10:39,541 --> 01:10:41,916
huge names in in taxonomy.

354
01:10:42,916 --> 01:10:44,333
And in Leonard's case, he had to let

355
01:10:44,333 --> 01:10:46,541
basically leave California as, you know,

356
01:10:46,541 --> 01:10:48,958
native state, San Francisco and city, San

357
01:10:48,958 --> 01:10:50,333
Francisco, go to South

358
01:10:50,333 --> 01:10:52,833
Africa for a job back in the 80s.

359
01:10:52,833 --> 01:10:54,416
And he essentially stayed there the rest

360
01:10:54,416 --> 01:10:56,500
of his life and and

361
01:10:56,500 --> 01:10:57,625
worked in South Africa.

362
01:10:57,750 --> 01:11:00,041
And he was fortunate he got a position

363
01:11:00,041 --> 01:11:02,833
first at SIAB and then later to Zico or

364
01:11:02,833 --> 01:11:04,083
the Cape Town at the South

365
01:11:04,083 --> 01:11:05,541
African Museum in Cape Town.

366
01:11:07,375 --> 01:11:08,666
But it was a lot of work and he met but

367
01:11:08,666 --> 01:11:10,166
he was, you know, Leonard was like I

368
01:11:10,166 --> 01:11:10,916
said, one of the best

369
01:11:10,916 --> 01:11:12,291
all time in the field.

370
01:11:12,875 --> 01:11:13,791
So you can do it.

371
01:11:14,375 --> 01:11:15,875
It's a lot of work, a lot of sacrifice.

372
01:11:16,125 --> 01:11:18,291
But I think I tell students is it's a

373
01:11:18,291 --> 01:11:21,541
good skill to know, yet because you can

374
01:11:21,541 --> 01:11:23,541
make it's one of those tools that can

375
01:11:23,541 --> 01:11:24,291
make you invaluable.

376
01:11:24,958 --> 01:11:26,625
If you have other skills to bring in

377
01:11:26,625 --> 01:11:29,166
quantitative skills, genetics, which is a

378
01:11:29,166 --> 01:11:31,666
big field now, if you have other skills

379
01:11:31,666 --> 01:11:33,583
to compliment this,

380
01:11:34,083 --> 01:11:35,166
that you can get a job.

381
01:11:35,166 --> 01:11:36,875
It may not be as a taxonomist, but it

382
01:11:36,875 --> 01:11:39,000
might be as a, you know, a fishery

383
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:41,791
biologist or or or another type of some

384
01:11:41,791 --> 01:11:44,125
other type of position adjacent to the

385
01:11:44,125 --> 01:11:47,875
field, then your expertise can help out.

386
01:11:47,916 --> 01:11:49,916
And that's kind of what I were I kind of

387
01:11:49,916 --> 01:11:52,375
came in was after Leonard kind of moved

388
01:11:52,375 --> 01:11:54,333
off the field, I kind of filled a big

389
01:11:54,333 --> 01:11:58,416
void there and I kind of moved as I kind

390
01:11:58,416 --> 01:12:00,791
of moved from doing the the a lot of the

391
01:12:00,791 --> 01:12:01,791
field stuff into doing

392
01:12:01,791 --> 01:12:03,000
more of the taxonomic work.

393
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:04,083
Just I've kind of moved in to

394
01:12:04,083 --> 01:12:06,250
fill that field on and stuff.

395
01:12:06,250 --> 01:12:06,833
And that's kind of what

396
01:12:06,833 --> 01:12:07,833
you that's the way to look.

397
01:12:07,833 --> 01:12:09,166
That's the way you could look at it.

398
01:12:09,416 --> 01:12:11,416
But you you can make a name for yourself

399
01:12:11,416 --> 01:12:13,041
in the field, basically, because there's

400
01:12:13,041 --> 01:12:14,291
just not a lot of people doing it.

401
01:12:14,791 --> 01:12:18,041
And, you know, the the the similarity I

402
01:12:18,041 --> 01:12:20,125
use is, you know, you can go do white

403
01:12:20,125 --> 01:12:24,833
sharks like everybody else does and, you

404
01:12:24,833 --> 01:12:25,583
know, you'll be one of a

405
01:12:25,583 --> 01:12:27,000
thousand people out there.

406
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:28,208
But, you know, you're

407
01:12:28,208 --> 01:12:29,250
not going to stand out.

408
01:12:29,791 --> 01:12:31,958
Maybe after years, you know, decades of

409
01:12:31,958 --> 01:12:32,875
work, you'll get there.

410
01:12:32,875 --> 01:12:36,083
But if you do something, some good, solid

411
01:12:36,083 --> 01:12:38,291
research in the taxonomic, chondricting

412
01:12:38,291 --> 01:12:40,041
taxonomy, you can get

413
01:12:40,041 --> 01:12:42,166
yourself on the map pretty quickly.

414
01:12:42,833 --> 01:12:45,041
Yeah, you become pretty effective within

415
01:12:45,041 --> 01:12:46,375
a lab or something, right?

416
01:12:46,375 --> 01:12:48,166
Like if you have those identification

417
01:12:48,166 --> 01:12:49,583
skills and so forth.

418
01:12:49,875 --> 01:12:50,875
And a lot of the students I'm working

419
01:12:50,875 --> 01:12:52,833
with now, they're there and we'll talk

420
01:12:52,833 --> 01:12:54,166
about a few of them and some of them will

421
01:12:54,166 --> 01:12:55,166
have on the podcast.

422
01:12:55,750 --> 01:12:57,208
And one of them has been the podcast.

423
01:12:57,208 --> 01:12:59,333
But if you develop quantitative skills

424
01:12:59,333 --> 01:13:05,125
and or genetic skills, then you start to

425
01:13:05,125 --> 01:13:06,750
make yourself valuable

426
01:13:06,750 --> 01:13:08,375
because you have multiple skills.

427
01:13:08,375 --> 01:13:09,791
And that's what I always tell students.

428
01:13:10,291 --> 01:13:11,625
Skills are what's going to get you there.

429
01:13:12,041 --> 01:13:12,375
Agreed.

430
01:13:12,666 --> 01:13:14,583
And so it's kind of neat to some of the

431
01:13:14,583 --> 01:13:15,666
young people I'm working with.

432
01:13:15,666 --> 01:13:16,750
And I'll mention some of the names like

433
01:13:16,750 --> 01:13:18,875
Rachel Aitjenson, who was one of my

434
01:13:18,875 --> 01:13:20,208
former MSC students.

435
01:13:20,291 --> 01:13:21,916
She's now in Nick Dolve podcast.

436
01:13:22,166 --> 01:13:23,000
Yep. She's been in the podcast.

437
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:24,291
She's a Nick Dolve's lab.

438
01:13:25,416 --> 01:13:26,500
Michaela Van Statten,

439
01:13:26,500 --> 01:13:27,916
who's also been on the podcast.

440
01:13:28,375 --> 01:13:30,708
She's now a postdoc at the University of

441
01:13:30,708 --> 01:13:33,875
Stellenbosch and a letter of Vondemarva's

442
01:13:33,875 --> 01:13:35,083
lab, who led has been

443
01:13:35,083 --> 01:13:36,416
on the podcast as well.

444
01:13:36,708 --> 01:13:39,291
And she's doing a postdoc and she has the

445
01:13:39,291 --> 01:13:41,166
genetic skills and she's

446
01:13:41,166 --> 01:13:42,625
learning the taxonomic stuff.

447
01:13:42,625 --> 01:13:44,625
And Rachel has quantitative skills.

448
01:13:44,625 --> 01:13:45,083
She's learning.

449
01:13:45,583 --> 01:13:48,958
And also another young postdoc who's

450
01:13:48,958 --> 01:13:51,291
who's who's very, very dynamic is a

451
01:13:51,291 --> 01:13:53,125
Yonella Sitto, who's

452
01:13:53,125 --> 01:13:54,708
who's a postdoc at SIAB.

453
01:13:55,333 --> 01:13:57,000
In her case, she worked and she did some

454
01:13:57,000 --> 01:13:59,708
taxonomy in freshwater fishes.

455
01:13:59,708 --> 01:14:02,000
And now she's come over to the light in

456
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:03,541
terms of working with chondric theans.

457
01:14:04,250 --> 01:14:05,791
And she has genetic skills.

458
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:08,208
And so those are just a few of the young

459
01:14:08,208 --> 01:14:09,666
students I'm working with

460
01:14:09,666 --> 01:14:11,416
now kind of training them up.

461
01:14:11,416 --> 01:14:14,125
But all of them have other skills that

462
01:14:14,125 --> 01:14:15,250
are really help them

463
01:14:15,250 --> 01:14:17,041
in the taxonomic world.

464
01:14:17,041 --> 01:14:19,583
Now taxonomy stuff could work out at some

465
01:14:19,583 --> 01:14:21,833
point where somebody needs someone that

466
01:14:21,833 --> 01:14:23,666
can identify sharks and rays.

467
01:14:24,958 --> 01:14:26,708
Yeah. And those that's a skill for him.

468
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:29,500
So so, yeah, we'll definitely we're going

469
01:14:29,500 --> 01:14:30,375
to have we have all three

470
01:14:30,375 --> 01:14:31,500
of them back on the podcast.

471
01:14:31,750 --> 01:14:33,541
You know, has you know, hasn't been on

472
01:14:33,541 --> 01:14:35,791
the podcast yet, but we'll definitely

473
01:14:35,791 --> 01:14:37,625
have the other two back on as well.

474
01:14:37,875 --> 01:14:39,625
So so, yeah, so those are just a few of

475
01:14:39,625 --> 01:14:41,166
the core people I've been working with.

476
01:14:41,166 --> 01:14:43,708
I ran some when I was at SIAB, I was

477
01:14:43,708 --> 01:14:46,291
running some identification workshops,

478
01:14:46,291 --> 01:14:47,125
which are kind of fun.

479
01:14:47,666 --> 01:14:51,500
Yeah. And I did one for the for a lot of

480
01:14:51,500 --> 01:14:53,708
the people, young people at SIAB that

481
01:14:53,708 --> 01:14:56,666
working on other areas, have other areas

482
01:14:56,666 --> 01:14:57,250
where there's freshwater

483
01:14:57,500 --> 01:14:59,958
fishes or bony fishes and stuff just to

484
01:14:59,958 --> 01:15:02,083
give them some basics, to train them some

485
01:15:02,083 --> 01:15:04,291
basics and chondrythian identification.

486
01:15:05,333 --> 01:15:06,000
And so that was kind of

487
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:07,000
that was kind of a cool thing.

488
01:15:07,416 --> 01:15:08,458
I enjoy doing that type of

489
01:15:08,458 --> 01:15:09,583
stuff. So it's really good.

490
01:15:10,583 --> 01:15:13,041
I had one day had a bunch of young grade

491
01:15:13,041 --> 01:15:16,083
school, I think, equivalent about third

492
01:15:16,083 --> 01:15:17,708
or third or fourth grade.

493
01:15:17,708 --> 01:15:19,250
I think there were seven, eight years old

494
01:15:19,250 --> 01:15:21,083
from one of the girl

495
01:15:21,083 --> 01:15:22,708
girl school there came by.

496
01:15:22,750 --> 01:15:24,666
One of the teachers, the former had been

497
01:15:24,666 --> 01:15:28,791
at SIAB, brought up and did her PhD there

498
01:15:28,791 --> 01:15:29,958
and brought them by.

499
01:15:29,958 --> 01:15:31,833
And so he spent about at a half hour just

500
01:15:31,833 --> 01:15:32,958
showing him talking about

501
01:15:32,958 --> 01:15:34,583
sharks and stuff like that.

502
01:15:34,916 --> 01:15:36,541
So, you know, most of them are not going

503
01:15:36,541 --> 01:15:39,166
to probably end up doing sharks, but to

504
01:15:39,166 --> 01:15:41,375
kind of be able to inspire some young

505
01:15:41,375 --> 01:15:42,791
people like that, you know, especially

506
01:15:42,791 --> 01:15:44,583
young kids like that, to see like, wow,

507
01:15:44,583 --> 01:15:47,500
there's opportunities there to pursue.

508
01:15:48,291 --> 01:15:49,833
And you can see some of these posts I

509
01:15:49,833 --> 01:15:52,083
have up on my Instagram account if you if

510
01:15:52,083 --> 01:15:53,041
you follow me at long

511
01:15:53,041 --> 01:15:54,083
shark guy on Instagram.

512
01:15:54,750 --> 01:15:57,333
Pretty cool. Yeah, it's really cool. And

513
01:15:57,333 --> 01:15:59,375
one of the main projects I'm working with

514
01:15:59,375 --> 01:16:01,583
is with the Food and Agriculture

515
01:16:01,583 --> 01:16:05,958
Organization and the the Nansen Research

516
01:16:05,958 --> 01:16:07,708
Vessel Nansen, which is doing research

517
01:16:07,708 --> 01:16:10,416
cruises off the east coast of Africa.

518
01:16:10,500 --> 01:16:14,750
They did it recently in 2023 and 2025 and

519
01:16:14,750 --> 01:16:16,791
the chondrythians come to SIAB for

520
01:16:16,791 --> 01:16:18,125
eventual deposition.

521
01:16:18,833 --> 01:16:21,000
But we've been working on describing

522
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:23,000
we've probably got about 12 or 15 new

523
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:26,291
species now that we're working on there.

524
01:16:26,791 --> 01:16:27,500
And again, I'm kind of

525
01:16:27,500 --> 01:16:29,041
working with the students.

526
01:16:29,041 --> 01:16:30,875
I just some of the postdocs, some of the

527
01:16:30,875 --> 01:16:32,958
postdocs and students I just mentioned,

528
01:16:33,166 --> 01:16:35,833
Rachel, Michaela and Yonella, as well as

529
01:16:35,833 --> 01:16:39,125
some others on identifying and confirming

530
01:16:39,125 --> 01:16:40,500
if these things are new species.

531
01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:43,375
Right. And that includes some revisionary

532
01:16:43,375 --> 01:16:46,041
work on the guitar fishes and stuff,

533
01:16:46,041 --> 01:16:47,375
which would be when they're done,

534
01:16:47,375 --> 01:16:48,416
there'll be some pretty impressive

535
01:16:50,666 --> 01:16:53,541
publications for them to have in their

536
01:16:53,541 --> 01:16:55,291
resume and their CV.

537
01:16:57,000 --> 01:17:01,041
And so that's pretty cool. And again, the

538
01:17:01,041 --> 01:17:02,416
other side thing is people think like

539
01:17:02,416 --> 01:17:03,208
young people think, well,

540
01:17:03,208 --> 01:17:04,416
has everything been discovered?

541
01:17:04,458 --> 01:17:06,166
And here we've got a

542
01:17:06,166 --> 01:17:08,000
dozen or more new species.

543
01:17:08,958 --> 01:17:11,208
And it's one of the Michigan like the

544
01:17:11,208 --> 01:17:13,333
ocean census and save our seas have been

545
01:17:13,333 --> 01:17:15,666
really great about helping support this

546
01:17:15,666 --> 01:17:18,500
type of research over over over the last

547
01:17:18,500 --> 01:17:20,500
several years of my certainly career.

548
01:17:21,250 --> 01:17:22,500
And then, of course, SIAB

549
01:17:22,500 --> 01:17:23,625
has been really good as well.

550
01:17:23,916 --> 01:17:25,250
So it's kind of a fun. We spent a couple

551
01:17:25,250 --> 01:17:26,541
of weeks and it was pretty full on.

552
01:17:26,541 --> 01:17:28,791
I mean, we worked. I worked like 15, 16

553
01:17:28,791 --> 01:17:30,541
days straight right through the weekends

554
01:17:30,541 --> 01:17:31,708
because I knew I only had a certain

555
01:17:31,708 --> 01:17:32,625
amount of time there.

556
01:17:32,750 --> 01:17:35,750
And so we were just in the kids were

557
01:17:35,750 --> 01:17:37,750
there just pounding away and stuff.

558
01:17:38,458 --> 01:17:40,291
And I had also had to get stuff together

559
01:17:40,291 --> 01:17:41,916
because I was given a talk that sharks

560
01:17:41,916 --> 01:17:42,958
International, which I'll

561
01:17:42,958 --> 01:17:44,166
talk about here just a moment.

562
01:17:45,166 --> 01:17:46,666
And so I had to get stuff together for

563
01:17:46,666 --> 01:17:48,625
that. Get get ready for that talk.

564
01:17:49,458 --> 01:17:52,833
And yes, an ongoing project. I hoping to

565
01:17:52,833 --> 01:17:56,000
go back in a early next year and

566
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:58,791
continue, continue the journey with it

567
01:17:58,791 --> 01:17:59,583
with the young people.

568
01:17:59,625 --> 01:18:01,791
And say at this point, my career, it's

569
01:18:01,791 --> 01:18:04,083
kind of cool seeing the young people kind

570
01:18:04,083 --> 01:18:05,791
of coming up and doing some stuff.

571
01:18:05,791 --> 01:18:08,250
So that was kind of the SIAP trip.

572
01:18:08,583 --> 01:18:11,500
And as I mentioned, it was 40 years ago.

573
01:18:11,791 --> 01:18:14,083
I first arrived in South Africa.

574
01:18:14,083 --> 01:18:16,083
It's funny because most these kids are

575
01:18:16,083 --> 01:18:20,416
like 10 years younger than, you know, are

576
01:18:20,416 --> 01:18:21,916
either aren't 30 or

577
01:18:21,916 --> 01:18:23,291
they're just barely 30 now.

578
01:18:23,625 --> 01:18:24,791
So it's kind of like,

579
01:18:24,791 --> 01:18:25,708
let me ask you this.

580
01:18:25,750 --> 01:18:26,916
So like, you know, you've had this

581
01:18:26,916 --> 01:18:30,333
relationship for 40 years, but how did it

582
01:18:30,333 --> 01:18:31,416
like, you know, you're living in

583
01:18:31,416 --> 01:18:33,625
California for most of that time, you

584
01:18:33,625 --> 01:18:35,083
know, other than when

585
01:18:35,083 --> 01:18:36,250
you lived in South Africa.

586
01:18:36,500 --> 01:18:37,875
But, you know, coming back, you probably

587
01:18:37,875 --> 01:18:40,000
lived in California now since you back.

588
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:41,541
What, since the early 90s? Yeah, I've

589
01:18:41,541 --> 01:18:43,708
been there for about 35 years or so.

590
01:18:43,708 --> 01:18:46,541
Yeah, five years. Yeah. So like, you

591
01:18:46,541 --> 01:18:47,833
know, especially as the Internet got on,

592
01:18:47,833 --> 01:18:49,083
probably got a little easier to keep in

593
01:18:49,083 --> 01:18:50,500
touch with people and so forth.

594
01:18:50,500 --> 01:18:52,166
But over the years, like, how do you

595
01:18:52,166 --> 01:18:53,875
maintain that type of relationship with

596
01:18:53,875 --> 01:18:56,083
such a geographic distance?

597
01:18:57,500 --> 01:18:59,041
Well, I'll say the Internet did help a

598
01:18:59,041 --> 01:19:01,958
bit. Part of it, I had I had developed a

599
01:19:01,958 --> 01:19:03,500
lot of good friendships at the time.

600
01:19:03,958 --> 01:19:05,875
And it's kind of interesting because you

601
01:19:05,875 --> 01:19:07,500
see these people I went to grad school

602
01:19:07,500 --> 01:19:09,458
with and like, you know, some of them are

603
01:19:09,458 --> 01:19:12,333
like director of the lab director, right?

604
01:19:12,791 --> 01:19:13,458
Director at the

605
01:19:13,458 --> 01:19:15,291
Oceanographic Research Institute.

606
01:19:15,583 --> 01:19:17,500
Larry Allerman, a lot of the research

607
01:19:17,500 --> 01:19:20,375
people there at the Oceanographic

608
01:19:20,375 --> 01:19:22,375
Research Institute, some at SIAB.

609
01:19:23,333 --> 01:19:26,208
They got jobs here or some of the other

610
01:19:26,208 --> 01:19:27,875
universities or institutions there.

611
01:19:27,875 --> 01:19:29,333
And so this is an

612
01:19:29,333 --> 01:19:30,666
important point for young people.

613
01:19:31,083 --> 01:19:32,083
I made these relationships.

614
01:19:32,291 --> 01:19:33,291
We're all grad students.

615
01:19:34,041 --> 01:19:34,750
And we just kept those

616
01:19:34,750 --> 01:19:36,500
friendships going over the years.

617
01:19:36,916 --> 01:19:39,416
And as they moved into position initially

618
01:19:39,416 --> 01:19:42,125
start, you know, starting positions and

619
01:19:42,125 --> 01:19:43,833
then moved up through their careers and

620
01:19:43,833 --> 01:19:45,583
became more senior researchers there,

621
01:19:46,083 --> 01:19:50,250
that kind of enabled me to eventually get

622
01:19:50,250 --> 01:19:52,000
get on as a research associate.

623
01:19:52,375 --> 01:19:54,000
And of course, of course, the number of

624
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:56,333
the people there that were directors,

625
01:19:56,625 --> 01:19:57,708
senior people when I was a

626
01:19:57,708 --> 01:19:58,958
student were still there.

627
01:19:59,708 --> 01:20:00,333
You know, I became a

628
01:20:00,333 --> 01:20:02,666
research associate at SIAB in 2009.

629
01:20:03,875 --> 01:20:05,291
So it was about 18

630
01:20:05,291 --> 01:20:07,166
years or so after I left.

631
01:20:08,083 --> 01:20:09,208
And I didn't even I wasn't

632
01:20:09,208 --> 01:20:10,291
even really thinking about it.

633
01:20:10,291 --> 01:20:12,458
And when I was down there, I had been

634
01:20:12,458 --> 01:20:13,291
going back already

635
01:20:13,291 --> 01:20:14,375
doing some research there.

636
01:20:14,583 --> 01:20:16,000
And someone asked me

637
01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:17,291
one of my friends there.

638
01:20:17,583 --> 01:20:18,916
I think it was Paul Cowley asked me if I

639
01:20:18,916 --> 01:20:20,458
wanted to be a research associate.

640
01:20:20,458 --> 01:20:21,208
And I said, sure.

641
01:20:22,041 --> 01:20:24,625
That's awesome. And so there's a so to

642
01:20:24,625 --> 01:20:26,208
satisfy something like that.

643
01:20:26,208 --> 01:20:27,750
Do you have to do a certain like, do you

644
01:20:27,750 --> 01:20:28,875
publish papers with people?

645
01:20:29,666 --> 01:20:31,625
And then and then when you do visit, you

646
01:20:31,625 --> 01:20:33,541
do these workshops and stuff like that.

647
01:20:33,541 --> 01:20:34,291
Is that how it works?

648
01:20:34,291 --> 01:20:35,458
Yeah, I publish. I publish.

649
01:20:36,083 --> 01:20:38,250
I use the SIAB in addition to my Moss

650
01:20:38,250 --> 01:20:39,958
Landing San Jose State address.

651
01:20:39,958 --> 01:20:42,625
I use SIAB as an address and they get

652
01:20:42,625 --> 01:20:44,875
they get, you know, it gives them

653
01:20:44,875 --> 01:20:46,500
recognition publicity.

654
01:20:46,791 --> 01:20:49,416
And they also get they get research funds

655
01:20:49,416 --> 01:20:50,416
to fund because they're

656
01:20:50,416 --> 01:20:51,750
their national institution.

657
01:20:51,750 --> 01:20:52,958
They get research funds from the

658
01:20:52,958 --> 01:20:54,000
government for

659
01:20:54,000 --> 01:20:55,916
publications and notoriety.

660
01:20:56,208 --> 01:20:59,083
And so as a research associate, when I

661
01:20:59,083 --> 01:21:01,250
publish and I use their address that

662
01:21:01,250 --> 01:21:03,458
gets, you know, they they get funding.

663
01:21:03,875 --> 01:21:05,541
They get they get basically funding from

664
01:21:05,541 --> 01:21:07,125
the government for publications.

665
01:21:07,375 --> 01:21:09,500
And I'm one of the more prolific

666
01:21:09,500 --> 01:21:11,833
researchers there in

667
01:21:11,833 --> 01:21:12,875
terms of publications.

668
01:21:13,708 --> 01:21:14,916
And so when I go down

669
01:21:14,916 --> 01:21:16,125
there, I you know, they help.

670
01:21:16,125 --> 01:21:18,125
They help defray a lot of my costs.

671
01:21:18,666 --> 01:21:20,791
Gotcha. So it's so it works out.

672
01:21:20,791 --> 01:21:21,666
It works out for everybody.

673
01:21:21,916 --> 01:21:24,166
You know, and then between that and then

674
01:21:24,166 --> 01:21:27,916
with these other grants, Save Our Seas

675
01:21:27,916 --> 01:21:29,500
and Ocean Cents, it kind of like between

676
01:21:29,500 --> 01:21:31,916
the three of those, it kind of all based

677
01:21:31,916 --> 01:21:33,166
as long as they cover my expenses.

678
01:21:33,166 --> 01:21:34,833
I'm not making any money on it, but as

679
01:21:34,833 --> 01:21:36,250
long as they cover all my expenses, they

680
01:21:36,250 --> 01:21:37,458
get a trip to South Africa.

681
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:39,500
Yeah, some research, get to visit with

682
01:21:39,500 --> 01:21:42,541
friends and make new acquaintances and

683
01:21:42,541 --> 01:21:43,875
new friendships down there.

684
01:21:44,250 --> 01:21:45,500
So and that's amazing.

685
01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:47,583
Yeah. So it's been it's one of those

686
01:21:47,583 --> 01:21:48,875
things that Andrew have talked about is

687
01:21:48,875 --> 01:21:49,708
like you just sort of

688
01:21:49,708 --> 01:21:50,833
figured out as you go along.

689
01:21:50,916 --> 01:21:52,083
I didn't have any grand plan.

690
01:21:52,333 --> 01:21:54,041
I couldn't even have told you when I

691
01:21:54,041 --> 01:21:55,708
started out that I was going to be

692
01:21:55,708 --> 01:21:57,750
spending as much time there.

693
01:21:58,208 --> 01:21:59,250
You know, I'm glad I did.

694
01:21:59,250 --> 01:22:01,083
But I didn't. I told you that 35 years

695
01:22:01,083 --> 01:22:02,958
ago where I didn't really know where I

696
01:22:02,958 --> 01:22:04,250
was going at that point in time.

697
01:22:04,833 --> 01:22:06,291
Yeah, my career. That's amazing.

698
01:22:06,708 --> 01:22:07,875
Yeah, that's so cool.

699
01:22:08,291 --> 01:22:10,083
So you spent what two weeks there?

700
01:22:10,458 --> 01:22:12,583
Yeah, I was there basically like full on

701
01:22:12,583 --> 01:22:14,583
for like 15 days and I went out.

702
01:22:14,708 --> 01:22:16,583
Yeah, I worked right through the

703
01:22:16,583 --> 01:22:18,875
weekends. I had people coming and going

704
01:22:18,875 --> 01:22:20,083
at the young people.

705
01:22:20,083 --> 01:22:22,291
I mentioned another colleague of mine,

706
01:22:22,291 --> 01:22:23,333
Rob Leslie, who's

707
01:22:23,333 --> 01:22:25,000
retired from sea fisheries.

708
01:22:25,625 --> 01:22:27,750
I knew Rob back in the day when I was a

709
01:22:27,750 --> 01:22:30,041
student there and he was a recent and he

710
01:22:30,041 --> 01:22:31,500
was one of the fishery biologists.

711
01:22:31,500 --> 01:22:35,416
He's went out some cruises with and so.

712
01:22:36,000 --> 01:22:38,166
So, yeah, so we just so he was there.

713
01:22:38,166 --> 01:22:39,708
So I had people coming. I had people

714
01:22:39,708 --> 01:22:40,541
coming and going the whole

715
01:22:40,541 --> 01:22:42,250
time I was there literally.

716
01:22:42,750 --> 01:22:43,666
I'm sure because I mean,

717
01:22:43,666 --> 01:22:44,791
that's the fun part though, right?

718
01:22:45,041 --> 01:22:46,208
When you go back, it's busy.

719
01:22:46,666 --> 01:22:47,583
Yeah, that's the fun part.

720
01:22:47,583 --> 01:22:48,958
Like, you know, while you're working

721
01:22:48,958 --> 01:22:50,291
there and then after you have some

722
01:22:50,291 --> 01:22:51,333
dinner, have some drinks,

723
01:22:51,333 --> 01:22:52,625
some folks that you haven't seen in a

724
01:22:52,625 --> 01:22:54,583
while, catch up, see what they're up to,

725
01:22:54,583 --> 01:22:55,458
see how things have changed.

726
01:22:55,458 --> 01:22:57,875
Like, did you find not only the lab, but

727
01:22:57,875 --> 01:22:59,750
just like the area that you were in, had

728
01:22:59,750 --> 01:23:01,083
that changed over the years?

729
01:23:01,083 --> 01:23:02,500
I assume since you've been there.

730
01:23:02,500 --> 01:23:04,500
Yeah, it's a little different from what I

731
01:23:04,500 --> 01:23:07,583
it's it's a it's a for good and bad.

732
01:23:07,666 --> 01:23:08,541
Some of the a lot of the infrastructure

733
01:23:08,541 --> 01:23:10,375
is kind of falling apart there in

734
01:23:10,375 --> 01:23:12,625
Grahamstown than from when I was there.

735
01:23:13,208 --> 01:23:14,541
But it's kind of like going on all over

736
01:23:14,541 --> 01:23:15,958
the over the country right now.

737
01:23:15,958 --> 01:23:17,708
Just just some of that stuff going on.

738
01:23:17,708 --> 01:23:19,541
But it's it's the best part of the whole

739
01:23:19,541 --> 01:23:20,125
thing is just the

740
01:23:20,125 --> 01:23:21,750
friendships I've had over the time.

741
01:23:21,750 --> 01:23:23,583
And and now it's like most of the people

742
01:23:23,583 --> 01:23:25,333
I knew there are now retiring, which is

743
01:23:25,333 --> 01:23:27,208
scary as shit to me.

744
01:23:28,458 --> 01:23:30,000
I have no intention of retiring.

745
01:23:30,541 --> 01:23:32,500
I mean, what I need to retire and travel.

746
01:23:32,500 --> 01:23:35,291
I mean, I travel now and see my stuff.

747
01:23:35,375 --> 01:23:37,375
Exactly. So but but it's still good.

748
01:23:37,375 --> 01:23:38,875
I see I see a lot of my friends when I'm

749
01:23:38,875 --> 01:23:41,000
down there and see a lot of a lot of my

750
01:23:41,000 --> 01:23:43,333
say retire, but a lot of they retire and

751
01:23:43,333 --> 01:23:44,458
they do consulting work.

752
01:23:44,875 --> 01:23:45,375
Yeah, they're kind of

753
01:23:45,375 --> 01:23:46,416
still active in the field.

754
01:23:46,416 --> 01:23:47,708
And I'm not that old.

755
01:23:47,708 --> 01:23:48,166
You know, we're only in

756
01:23:48,166 --> 01:23:49,666
our 60s for crying out loud.

757
01:23:49,666 --> 01:23:50,500
It's not that old.

758
01:23:51,041 --> 01:23:52,583
Well, I also think I also think there's

759
01:23:52,583 --> 01:23:57,208
this like I can't see myself, you know, I

760
01:23:57,208 --> 01:23:58,625
see myself retiring at

761
01:23:58,625 --> 01:23:59,791
some point from a job.

762
01:24:00,791 --> 01:24:04,291
But I can't see myself turning off the

763
01:24:04,291 --> 01:24:07,166
curiosity of asking questions.

764
01:24:07,583 --> 01:24:10,041
And I wonder if I could just do this or I

765
01:24:10,041 --> 01:24:11,333
know what I mean as a marine biology.

766
01:24:11,333 --> 01:24:13,083
I feel like it's different if I worked at

767
01:24:13,083 --> 01:24:14,916
like a company that I worked at before, I

768
01:24:14,916 --> 01:24:15,750
can see myself retiring.

769
01:24:15,750 --> 01:24:17,166
Yeah, I'd never do that thing again.

770
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:20,125
But like I think marine biology and shark

771
01:24:20,125 --> 01:24:21,791
science, like it's a little different in

772
01:24:21,791 --> 01:24:23,208
a way, like the mindset, right?

773
01:24:23,208 --> 01:24:24,916
When you get towards that age, I mean,

774
01:24:24,916 --> 01:24:25,916
you might get tired or something.

775
01:24:25,916 --> 01:24:27,458
And maybe if you're a director of

776
01:24:27,458 --> 01:24:28,708
something, maybe you retire from that.

777
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:30,750
But I feel like the science brain just

778
01:24:30,750 --> 01:24:33,083
never really shuts off and you might

779
01:24:33,083 --> 01:24:36,083
mentor some students or you might like

780
01:24:36,083 --> 01:24:38,041
just work on a paper

781
01:24:38,041 --> 01:24:40,208
together or probably you.

782
01:24:40,208 --> 01:24:41,500
You'll probably catch up on a lot of

783
01:24:41,500 --> 01:24:44,166
stuff that you haven't published on and

784
01:24:44,166 --> 01:24:46,625
you want to publish on, especially a lot

785
01:24:46,625 --> 01:24:47,916
of these species discoveries.

786
01:24:48,208 --> 01:24:48,916
I see. Yeah.

787
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:50,708
Some of the stuff is just I mean, there's

788
01:24:50,708 --> 01:24:52,000
some stuff I'll know I know I'll never

789
01:24:52,000 --> 01:24:52,916
get to and I just pass

790
01:24:52,916 --> 01:24:54,000
off to younger people.

791
01:24:54,458 --> 01:24:55,250
They might get to it.

792
01:24:55,250 --> 01:24:56,500
And then there's newer stuff because the

793
01:24:56,500 --> 01:24:57,958
new stuff keeps coming up.

794
01:24:58,666 --> 01:25:01,000
And, you know, it's just I think a thing

795
01:25:01,000 --> 01:25:02,750
and I've talked and I've talked about

796
01:25:02,750 --> 01:25:04,708
this before the podcast is that, you

797
01:25:04,708 --> 01:25:06,333
know, I kind of got into new things, kind

798
01:25:06,333 --> 01:25:08,458
of reinvent myself a little bit because

799
01:25:08,458 --> 01:25:10,708
pretty much most of my career, I was

800
01:25:10,708 --> 01:25:11,541
pretty much just

801
01:25:11,541 --> 01:25:13,541
hardcore like doing research.

802
01:25:14,125 --> 01:25:16,041
You know, the the social

803
01:25:16,041 --> 01:25:18,000
media was non existent.

804
01:25:18,125 --> 01:25:18,958
Yeah, I mean, doing a

805
01:25:18,958 --> 01:25:20,041
lot of outreach stuff.

806
01:25:20,041 --> 01:25:22,291
I mean, honestly, back when I was coming

807
01:25:22,291 --> 01:25:24,583
up, a lot of the people, my professors

808
01:25:24,583 --> 01:25:26,541
and stuff kind of shied away from doing

809
01:25:26,541 --> 01:25:27,833
any kind of outreach or

810
01:25:27,833 --> 01:25:28,833
science communication.

811
01:25:30,208 --> 01:25:32,000
The one guy who was an exception to that,

812
01:25:32,250 --> 01:25:33,500
I was fortunate to have.

813
01:25:33,750 --> 01:25:34,708
And I was very fortunate.

814
01:25:34,958 --> 01:25:36,500
Some again, sometimes I've talked about a

815
01:25:36,500 --> 01:25:37,125
lot of these people a

816
01:25:37,125 --> 01:25:38,000
little more detailed.

817
01:25:38,708 --> 01:25:41,333
John McCosker, who was the director of

818
01:25:41,333 --> 01:25:43,000
the Steinhardt Aquarium and later the

819
01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:45,291
California Academy of Sciences, he was

820
01:25:45,291 --> 01:25:46,791
doing his top notch

821
01:25:46,791 --> 01:25:48,250
scientist, really good.

822
01:25:48,916 --> 01:25:50,916
Went to Scripps universe Scripps

823
01:25:50,916 --> 01:25:53,583
Institute of Oceanography top notch did

824
01:25:53,583 --> 01:25:55,083
he did fish taxonomy.

825
01:25:56,666 --> 01:25:58,500
But he was doing science communication

826
01:25:58,500 --> 01:26:00,416
back when it wasn't even a thing.

827
01:26:00,416 --> 01:26:00,833
They didn't even call

828
01:26:00,833 --> 01:26:01,791
it science communication.

829
01:26:02,416 --> 01:26:03,250
It was just but he was

830
01:26:03,250 --> 01:26:04,500
very good at education.

831
01:26:04,750 --> 01:26:06,166
Yeah, reaching out and

832
01:26:06,166 --> 01:26:07,666
connecting with the public.

833
01:26:07,666 --> 01:26:10,000
And he was the first person and still

834
01:26:10,000 --> 01:26:12,666
probably the best person I ever knew at

835
01:26:12,666 --> 01:26:15,125
that level of top scientists where he

836
01:26:15,125 --> 01:26:16,041
could take a complicated.

837
01:26:17,458 --> 01:26:20,333
Topic and break it down to simple thing

838
01:26:20,333 --> 01:26:21,916
that the average guy in

839
01:26:21,916 --> 01:26:22,958
the street would understand.

840
01:26:24,250 --> 01:26:27,416
And and that's a thing in the field is

841
01:26:27,416 --> 01:26:30,000
that a lot of the people scientists, they

842
01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:30,666
don't know how to

843
01:26:30,666 --> 01:26:33,708
communicate with the average person.

844
01:26:34,458 --> 01:26:36,041
There's too much scientific jargon.

845
01:26:36,583 --> 01:26:37,791
And you know this because you've kind of

846
01:26:37,791 --> 01:26:39,958
spanned both sides of the field.

847
01:26:39,958 --> 01:26:40,333
So you probably

848
01:26:40,333 --> 01:26:41,458
understand this better than most.

849
01:26:42,458 --> 01:26:44,333
But he's one of the few people at the

850
01:26:44,333 --> 01:26:46,875
time is really is a pioneer in that area

851
01:26:46,875 --> 01:26:49,541
of the field because generally doing the

852
01:26:49,541 --> 01:26:51,791
stuff the science communication he was

853
01:26:51,791 --> 01:26:55,291
doing at the time was like generally not

854
01:26:55,291 --> 01:26:57,750
well thought of even though

855
01:26:57,750 --> 01:26:59,458
I but I kind of understood.

856
01:26:59,458 --> 01:27:02,083
I thought what John was doing was we

857
01:27:02,083 --> 01:27:03,541
should be doing more communicating with

858
01:27:03,541 --> 01:27:05,583
the public because he can't and you need

859
01:27:05,583 --> 01:27:06,333
to explain it in a

860
01:27:06,333 --> 01:27:09,000
situation in his in a con.

861
01:27:09,000 --> 01:27:10,875
The average person can understand if

862
01:27:10,875 --> 01:27:11,208
you're throwing

863
01:27:11,208 --> 01:27:12,750
around a lot of big words.

864
01:27:13,375 --> 01:27:15,250
There's people just they might think they

865
01:27:15,250 --> 01:27:16,083
might say, wow, you're really

866
01:27:16,083 --> 01:27:17,458
enthusiastic, but I have no idea what

867
01:27:17,458 --> 01:27:18,250
you're talking about.

868
01:27:18,458 --> 01:27:20,125
Yeah, true. True.

869
01:27:20,375 --> 01:27:21,833
And so, of course, with the Internet and

870
01:27:21,833 --> 01:27:23,208
with social media now, that's

871
01:27:23,208 --> 01:27:25,458
completely changed the game.

872
01:27:25,500 --> 01:27:27,916
And I should talk a little bit more about

873
01:27:27,916 --> 01:27:29,500
this at this about in regards to the

874
01:27:29,500 --> 01:27:31,250
shark international conference.

875
01:27:32,500 --> 01:27:34,541
But so I kind of came up in an air that

876
01:27:34,541 --> 01:27:36,500
kind of straddled both sides of this.

877
01:27:36,500 --> 01:27:38,833
And now at this point in my career and

878
01:27:38,833 --> 01:27:40,041
again, the young people,

879
01:27:40,041 --> 01:27:41,125
it's hard to convey this to.

880
01:27:41,125 --> 01:27:43,041
But when you get older, later in your

881
01:27:43,041 --> 01:27:46,000
career, always good to reinvent yourself.

882
01:27:46,791 --> 01:27:49,458
Like I never could have imagined what?

883
01:27:49,458 --> 01:27:52,541
10, 15 years before I met you doing this

884
01:27:52,541 --> 01:27:53,916
kind of I mean, a

885
01:27:53,916 --> 01:27:55,833
podcast was like unheard of.

886
01:27:55,833 --> 01:27:57,875
I just never thought about that.

887
01:27:58,166 --> 01:27:59,291
I blame all that on you,

888
01:27:59,291 --> 01:28:00,375
but now you're addicted.

889
01:28:01,000 --> 01:28:02,958
Oh, yeah, I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I

890
01:28:02,958 --> 01:28:04,333
got it. I got I enjoyed.

891
01:28:04,333 --> 01:28:06,416
I kind of got to join podcasts a little

892
01:28:06,416 --> 01:28:07,958
bit, but I'd never you were the first one

893
01:28:07,958 --> 01:28:09,458
ever invited me on to podcast.

894
01:28:09,458 --> 01:28:11,541
I've never done one. And I really enjoy

895
01:28:11,541 --> 01:28:13,125
this long form like we do

896
01:28:13,125 --> 01:28:14,416
with the Beyond Jaws podcast.

897
01:28:15,125 --> 01:28:17,541
And of course, that led to this now. And

898
01:28:17,541 --> 01:28:18,125
then, of course, now

899
01:28:18,125 --> 01:28:18,458
we're doing these YouTube.

900
01:28:18,458 --> 01:28:22,000
Documentary series searching for lost

901
01:28:22,000 --> 01:28:23,041
sharks documenting

902
01:28:23,041 --> 01:28:24,750
some of these journeys.

903
01:28:24,750 --> 01:28:26,416
I've been on the last few years, you

904
01:28:26,416 --> 01:28:27,583
know, thanks to the Save our Seas

905
01:28:27,583 --> 01:28:29,875
Foundation and trying to tell a story

906
01:28:29,875 --> 01:28:32,125
about how, you know,

907
01:28:32,125 --> 01:28:33,250
about these different things.

908
01:28:33,250 --> 01:28:35,416
I try to lay and pray add a little more,

909
01:28:35,416 --> 01:28:37,708
you know, context of some of these

910
01:28:37,708 --> 01:28:40,083
discoveries that the recent one up give a

911
01:28:40,083 --> 01:28:41,458
plug for the on the River Shark story.

912
01:28:42,458 --> 01:28:45,333
If you have a chance to catch it, it's

913
01:28:45,333 --> 01:28:46,500
only like twelve, thirteen minutes.

914
01:28:46,791 --> 01:28:49,541
But I encourage people to go to lost

915
01:28:49,541 --> 01:28:52,208
shark guy on YouTube and watch it.

916
01:28:52,208 --> 01:28:54,625
But it really that whole journey laid the

917
01:28:54,625 --> 01:28:57,708
foundation for shark conservation because

918
01:28:57,708 --> 01:29:00,500
there was no shark conservation against

919
01:29:00,500 --> 01:29:03,083
hard for people to understand that.

920
01:29:03,458 --> 01:29:04,250
You know, you're

921
01:29:04,250 --> 01:29:05,458
probably in that tweener area.

922
01:29:05,458 --> 01:29:08,208
You're at your age, Andrew, like I don't

923
01:29:08,208 --> 01:29:10,541
like the really it was kind of sort of

924
01:29:10,541 --> 01:29:13,000
starting out when you came of age, but it

925
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:14,500
was really, you know,

926
01:29:14,500 --> 01:29:15,958
there was no field for it.

927
01:29:16,208 --> 01:29:19,083
And I just really that whole thing. And

928
01:29:19,083 --> 01:29:20,875
again, brilliance of like Leonard

929
01:29:20,875 --> 01:29:23,833
Kapano's he was thinking about this and

930
01:29:23,833 --> 01:29:24,833
talking about sharks

931
01:29:24,833 --> 01:29:25,458
that had disappeared.

932
01:29:26,458 --> 01:29:29,125
And I talk about this in that video

933
01:29:29,125 --> 01:29:30,875
episode about how

934
01:29:30,875 --> 01:29:32,500
there's no nothing going on.

935
01:29:32,500 --> 01:29:35,458
And coincidentally, parallel to my

936
01:29:35,458 --> 01:29:37,083
journey in shark conservation, Sarah

937
01:29:37,083 --> 01:29:40,833
Fowler in England, who is working, who's

938
01:29:40,833 --> 01:29:43,500
also doing marine conservation, started

939
01:29:43,500 --> 01:29:44,291
asking questions

940
01:29:44,291 --> 01:29:44,458
about shark conservation.

941
01:29:45,458 --> 01:29:47,208
And Sarah and I are about the same age.

942
01:29:47,833 --> 01:29:49,958
And again, without having social media or

943
01:29:49,958 --> 01:29:52,375
any kind of Internet, we're just on these

944
01:29:52,375 --> 01:29:54,875
parallel paths that kind of eventually

945
01:29:54,875 --> 01:29:58,083
crossed, you know, later on in the 90s.

946
01:29:58,333 --> 01:30:01,916
But in my case, Leonard Leonard, it's

947
01:30:01,916 --> 01:30:03,416
good. Everybody's talking about like

948
01:30:03,416 --> 01:30:05,958
sharks in terms of fisheries. Nobody is

949
01:30:05,958 --> 01:30:07,041
talking about sharks

950
01:30:07,041 --> 01:30:09,458
having disappeared at that time.

951
01:30:09,500 --> 01:30:12,875
And the River Shark was one was one of

952
01:30:12,875 --> 01:30:16,375
the was one of the species that Leonard

953
01:30:16,375 --> 01:30:18,166
literally thought the Ganges shark it may

954
01:30:18,166 --> 01:30:19,958
have gone extinct back in the 80s because

955
01:30:19,958 --> 01:30:22,041
nobody has seen one for like a hundred

956
01:30:22,041 --> 01:30:24,958
and fifty or sixty years at the time.

957
01:30:24,958 --> 01:30:26,375
The same River Shark that we just

958
01:30:26,375 --> 01:30:28,250
released an episode on not too long ago

959
01:30:28,250 --> 01:30:30,291
that people can go check out last shark

960
01:30:30,291 --> 01:30:30,458
on the YouTube channel.

961
01:30:30,500 --> 01:30:33,041
Yep. Just want to just want to mention

962
01:30:33,041 --> 01:30:35,500
that just a little. Yeah. No, lost shark

963
01:30:35,500 --> 01:30:36,500
guy on YouTube and

964
01:30:36,500 --> 01:30:39,083
Andrew and Denise Sotomayor.

965
01:30:39,083 --> 01:30:41,083
I want to get mention her. She's she's

966
01:30:41,083 --> 01:30:42,791
been on the podcast video. She did the

967
01:30:42,791 --> 01:30:44,708
filming out. She did the filming on there

968
01:30:44,708 --> 01:30:48,333
and you did the all the, you know, did

969
01:30:48,333 --> 01:30:49,375
the editing for the stuff.

970
01:30:49,458 --> 01:30:51,333
And I put the other story and I try to

971
01:30:51,333 --> 01:30:53,541
put more of a story to it than just like,

972
01:30:53,541 --> 01:30:55,916
yeah, here's River Sharks. Tell a little

973
01:30:55,916 --> 01:30:57,291
more of a story and of course feature a

974
01:30:57,291 --> 01:30:59,458
lot of young people in the series.

975
01:30:59,458 --> 01:31:01,291
Julia Constance is one of the featured

976
01:31:01,291 --> 01:31:03,041
people in the current one, but I've also

977
01:31:03,041 --> 01:31:08,458
had Adriana Pestana, Nia Simone and the

978
01:31:08,458 --> 01:31:09,583
thing. So there's a

979
01:31:09,583 --> 01:31:10,458
number of young people there.

980
01:31:10,500 --> 01:31:13,541
I've got Christelle Madagascar, Pierre,

981
01:31:13,750 --> 01:31:14,833
and it was a whole bunch of people are

982
01:31:14,833 --> 01:31:17,250
young people kind of featured. So you get

983
01:31:17,250 --> 01:31:18,500
a bit of a crossover as

984
01:31:18,500 --> 01:31:20,166
well in some of the stuff.

985
01:31:20,416 --> 01:31:22,375
But yeah, definitely check it out. But

986
01:31:22,375 --> 01:31:24,791
it's an interesting story in the whole

987
01:31:24,791 --> 01:31:27,083
whole journey as far as how

988
01:31:27,083 --> 01:31:28,458
the is how that took place.

989
01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:31,833
But again, coming back to the main thing

990
01:31:31,833 --> 01:31:33,541
I mentioned is you get along in your

991
01:31:33,541 --> 01:31:36,250
career, never be afraid to reinvent

992
01:31:36,250 --> 01:31:38,833
yourself because that's

993
01:31:38,833 --> 01:31:41,416
going to because you keep young.

994
01:31:41,958 --> 01:31:43,666
You want to challenge it the more you

995
01:31:43,666 --> 01:31:45,333
when you're challenging yourself, you're

996
01:31:45,333 --> 01:31:46,541
always wanting to do something new,

997
01:31:46,750 --> 01:31:48,250
something different rather than just

998
01:31:48,250 --> 01:31:50,041
getting stale, doing the same old thing.

999
01:31:50,916 --> 01:31:53,041
Yeah, no, 100 percent. Like it's it's

1000
01:31:53,041 --> 01:31:55,458
yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So after the.

1001
01:31:56,458 --> 01:31:59,833
Great time I had there at SIAB and it was

1002
01:31:59,833 --> 01:32:01,500
a good time at a really good time seeing

1003
01:32:01,500 --> 01:32:03,500
friends and, you know, everything I went

1004
01:32:03,500 --> 01:32:08,791
on to Sri Lanka to a Colombo for the

1005
01:32:08,791 --> 01:32:10,416
Fifth Sharks International.

1006
01:32:10,958 --> 01:32:12,250
And I think that's what your second visit

1007
01:32:12,250 --> 01:32:14,208
to Sri Lanka. Yes, that was the second

1008
01:32:14,208 --> 01:32:16,208
one. My first one was about eight years

1009
01:32:16,208 --> 01:32:18,833
ago now. Yeah. Daniel Fernando, who was

1010
01:32:18,833 --> 01:32:19,458
just in the podcast.

1011
01:32:20,458 --> 01:32:22,458
And I'm going to try and repost a lot of

1012
01:32:22,458 --> 01:32:23,666
these things, but go out and check out

1013
01:32:23,666 --> 01:32:26,166
Daniel Fernando on there. He was I spent

1014
01:32:26,166 --> 01:32:28,000
a couple of weeks with him and his team

1015
01:32:28,000 --> 01:32:30,125
in Sri Lanka about eight years ago.

1016
01:32:30,125 --> 01:32:32,916
Had a phenomenal time. That was just that

1017
01:32:32,916 --> 01:32:34,916
was an epic. That was the next time me

1018
01:32:34,916 --> 01:32:37,041
from there. You're like, yeah, you're

1019
01:32:37,041 --> 01:32:39,125
like, this is amazing. We just we just

1020
01:32:39,125 --> 01:32:40,750
saw a shark. We just saw a shark. Yeah.

1021
01:32:40,750 --> 01:32:41,458
I'm looking for it. Yeah.

1022
01:32:41,500 --> 01:32:43,333
Oh, it's one of those. I tell the story.

1023
01:32:43,333 --> 01:32:45,375
I've told it. I know many times. But this

1024
01:32:45,375 --> 01:32:49,416
before I went, I got a email from

1025
01:32:49,416 --> 01:32:53,333
someone, a guy named Rex De Silva who I'd

1026
01:32:53,333 --> 01:32:55,250
corresponded with for

1027
01:32:55,250 --> 01:32:57,458
going back to the mid 80s.

1028
01:32:57,791 --> 01:33:00,750
And I finally met him in 2018. First time

1029
01:33:00,750 --> 01:33:03,750
we actually met in person and Rex

1030
01:33:03,750 --> 01:33:04,958
actually showed up at Sharks

1031
01:33:04,958 --> 01:33:07,375
International. And here's a story for

1032
01:33:07,375 --> 01:33:08,833
here's a story. I don't know if you think

1033
01:33:08,833 --> 01:33:10,083
I've told you share this one with you.

1034
01:33:10,083 --> 01:33:12,291
When I got to Sharks International, I met

1035
01:33:12,291 --> 01:33:14,541
up with a with a friend of mine. I'd

1036
01:33:14,541 --> 01:33:17,333
never met in person with Asha Davos. Yes.

1037
01:33:17,875 --> 01:33:18,708
Who's who's known for

1038
01:33:18,708 --> 01:33:20,083
her phenomenal person.

1039
01:33:21,291 --> 01:33:24,041
What a dynamo. Oh, yeah. And we'll have

1040
01:33:24,041 --> 01:33:25,208
to have her on. I know she's kind of a

1041
01:33:25,208 --> 01:33:26,708
whale person, but we'll have her on the

1042
01:33:26,708 --> 01:33:27,916
pike. I don't care. We'll have her on the

1043
01:33:27,916 --> 01:33:29,291
pie. She was a marine conservation

1044
01:33:29,291 --> 01:33:31,791
person. Yeah. Like all in all in all

1045
01:33:31,791 --> 01:33:34,000
together. And she's just a very fun

1046
01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:36,083
interview. She's always so much fun. Have

1047
01:33:36,083 --> 01:33:36,958
you had her on the have you had her on

1048
01:33:36,958 --> 01:33:37,958
your podcast? I've had her on the

1049
01:33:37,958 --> 01:33:40,333
podcast. I've actually interviewed her a

1050
01:33:40,333 --> 01:33:43,500
few times. She's been out. She does a lot

1051
01:33:43,500 --> 01:33:46,125
of she gets flown around the world. A lot

1052
01:33:46,125 --> 01:33:49,208
to do a lot of talks and she's as you I

1053
01:33:49,208 --> 01:33:49,666
think you were about

1054
01:33:49,666 --> 01:33:50,458
to say she discussed.

1055
01:33:50,458 --> 01:33:52,791
She discovered one of the only non

1056
01:33:52,791 --> 01:33:55,500
migrating blue whale populations that

1057
01:33:55,500 --> 01:33:57,041
were that was in the Indian Ocean just

1058
01:33:57,041 --> 01:34:00,416
south of Sri Lanka. And she does study on

1059
01:34:00,416 --> 01:34:01,875
that. And just to kind of give a brief

1060
01:34:01,875 --> 01:34:03,375
description of what she did like during

1061
01:34:03,375 --> 01:34:05,333
that time. She has one of the largest

1062
01:34:05,333 --> 01:34:07,333
ports in the world, if not the largest.

1063
01:34:07,333 --> 01:34:08,625
I'm not sure if it's the largest anymore,

1064
01:34:08,875 --> 01:34:12,833
but it's huge. And and she rallied the

1065
01:34:12,833 --> 01:34:15,000
government like went there every day to

1066
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:18,583
you know, to get them to change the way

1067
01:34:18,583 --> 01:34:19,458
like the basically the shipping lanes.

1068
01:34:19,500 --> 01:34:22,666
To go in so that they didn't have any

1069
01:34:22,666 --> 01:34:24,958
incidences against the blue whales,

1070
01:34:25,458 --> 01:34:28,125
which, you know, sounds, you know, kind

1071
01:34:28,125 --> 01:34:30,208
of normal enough, you know, if you go and

1072
01:34:30,208 --> 01:34:32,250
you lobby the government in the US or

1073
01:34:32,250 --> 01:34:34,500
Canada and stuff like that. It's it's you

1074
01:34:34,500 --> 01:34:36,291
know, it's normal that people would do

1075
01:34:36,291 --> 01:34:38,166
that to change shipping lanes and your

1076
01:34:38,166 --> 01:34:40,041
organization's a backer. But in Sri

1077
01:34:40,041 --> 01:34:41,000
Lanka, it's a little bit different.

1078
01:34:41,666 --> 01:34:44,083
There's obviously a gender bias there,

1079
01:34:44,333 --> 01:34:47,166
you know, as she's a woman doing science

1080
01:34:47,166 --> 01:34:48,458
and and you know, she's had a lot of work.

1081
01:34:48,458 --> 01:34:50,166
You know, she's had over that time, she

1082
01:34:50,166 --> 01:34:51,791
had a lot of threats to her life and

1083
01:34:51,791 --> 01:34:54,166
danger and things like that. And she's

1084
01:34:54,166 --> 01:34:56,625
continued to persevere. But not only

1085
01:34:56,625 --> 01:34:59,125
that, she got it to change, by the way.

1086
01:34:59,125 --> 01:35:01,000
And then she's just been an amazing

1087
01:35:01,000 --> 01:35:03,166
person. Like she's she's been a mentor to

1088
01:35:03,166 --> 01:35:07,083
people in developing countries to who

1089
01:35:07,083 --> 01:35:09,416
also want to do what she does. She

1090
01:35:09,416 --> 01:35:11,791
started her own organization. She's just

1091
01:35:11,791 --> 01:35:14,375
like it just doesn't stop with her. She's

1092
01:35:14,375 --> 01:35:16,125
extremely busy. But she came out to

1093
01:35:16,125 --> 01:35:17,458
Toronto a few times and every time she comes in, she's like, Oh, it's a great place to be.

1094
01:35:17,458 --> 01:35:19,416
And every time she comes, I try to I try

1095
01:35:19,416 --> 01:35:21,375
to link up with her because she's just so

1096
01:35:21,375 --> 01:35:23,333
much fun. Like she's a marathon runner.

1097
01:35:23,666 --> 01:35:26,333
She's just a fun person to get to know

1098
01:35:26,333 --> 01:35:28,583
and and and just to learn off of like

1099
01:35:28,583 --> 01:35:30,791
she's younger than I am. But she's like

1100
01:35:30,791 --> 01:35:32,666
just such a cool person to to

1101
01:35:32,666 --> 01:35:34,291
know as you as you probably.

1102
01:35:34,458 --> 01:35:35,791
Oh, yeah. Well, I said I'd known her a

1103
01:35:35,791 --> 01:35:37,750
little bit over the years and I'd been

1104
01:35:37,750 --> 01:35:40,375
I'd identified some deep sea sharks. She

1105
01:35:40,375 --> 01:35:45,500
had some videos of in the past and the

1106
01:35:45,500 --> 01:35:48,333
but I never met her before. I had one

1107
01:35:48,333 --> 01:35:49,708
time there before it was Daniel

1108
01:35:49,708 --> 01:35:51,166
Fernandez. And I've known Daniel and I've

1109
01:35:51,166 --> 01:35:54,833
known Daniel since probably 2012, 13

1110
01:35:54,833 --> 01:35:56,625
early on when he first got going. So I've

1111
01:35:56,625 --> 01:35:57,708
known Dan and Dan was

1112
01:35:57,708 --> 01:35:58,958
more in the manor a sharks.

1113
01:36:00,083 --> 01:36:02,000
You know, Guy Stevens and so who I've

1114
01:36:02,000 --> 01:36:04,125
known a long time as well. So I kind of

1115
01:36:04,125 --> 01:36:05,833
got to know them. So I've known them

1116
01:36:05,833 --> 01:36:07,583
more. But I got I got to know Ashley a

1117
01:36:07,583 --> 01:36:10,333
few years ago. We've corresponded. And so

1118
01:36:10,333 --> 01:36:12,666
I was coming to see those coming there.

1119
01:36:12,666 --> 01:36:14,416
We got together. Well, the story I

1120
01:36:14,416 --> 01:36:16,375
started to tell was this guy named Rex De

1121
01:36:16,375 --> 01:36:19,333
Silva, who's Rex is up in his mid 80s

1122
01:36:19,333 --> 01:36:21,583
now. But I got to know Rex through

1123
01:36:21,583 --> 01:36:23,708
correspondence back in the 80s. Met him

1124
01:36:23,708 --> 01:36:25,791
the first time when I went there in 2018.

1125
01:36:27,041 --> 01:36:28,083
And I was like, well, Rex came down and

1126
01:36:28,083 --> 01:36:31,250
he just had a heart attack like five

1127
01:36:31,250 --> 01:36:33,375
weeks earlier and he still shows still

1128
01:36:33,375 --> 01:36:35,291
came to the conference because he just

1129
01:36:35,291 --> 01:36:39,083
wanted to see me in person and get catch

1130
01:36:39,083 --> 01:36:42,416
up with him. Well, turns out that Rex is

1131
01:36:42,416 --> 01:36:45,291
no ashes since she was about six years

1132
01:36:45,291 --> 01:36:47,333
old because he was her karate coach.

1133
01:36:49,500 --> 01:36:52,250
Yeah. I mean, I realize Sri Lanka is a

1134
01:36:52,250 --> 01:36:54,208
small place, but still though, there's

1135
01:36:54,208 --> 01:36:55,708
lots of people that live there. Like that

1136
01:36:55,708 --> 01:36:57,583
doesn't always happen. No, I mean, he

1137
01:36:57,583 --> 01:36:59,708
wasn't like a marine. Rex is more of a

1138
01:36:59,708 --> 01:37:03,083
self taught naturalist. He's not a he's

1139
01:37:03,083 --> 01:37:05,041
not doesn't have the academic background.

1140
01:37:05,041 --> 01:37:07,041
A lot of people do. But he got one of the

1141
01:37:07,041 --> 01:37:09,500
things he did besides, you know, keeping

1142
01:37:09,500 --> 01:37:11,125
track of sharks. There was he was a

1143
01:37:11,125 --> 01:37:14,166
karate instructor and he'd been he'd been

1144
01:37:14,166 --> 01:37:15,833
trading ashes since he was like six.

1145
01:37:16,541 --> 01:37:19,208
So I thought that was just the hilarious

1146
01:37:19,208 --> 01:37:20,625
story. So there's a picture you'll see on

1147
01:37:20,625 --> 01:37:23,833
the thing of Asha and Rex and I and as

1148
01:37:23,833 --> 01:37:25,625
they had Rex as they start tell the

1149
01:37:25,625 --> 01:37:27,750
story, sent me a picture of this weird

1150
01:37:27,750 --> 01:37:30,000
shark. They a friend had sent him from

1151
01:37:30,000 --> 01:37:33,125
this deep water port on the east coast of

1152
01:37:33,125 --> 01:37:35,333
Sri Lanka. And when I and when I went

1153
01:37:35,333 --> 01:37:38,708
there with Daniel turned out, I showed

1154
01:37:38,708 --> 01:37:40,208
some fishermen a picture of this thing

1155
01:37:40,208 --> 01:37:42,166
and said, the guys kind of shook their

1156
01:37:42,166 --> 01:37:42,666
head and they say,

1157
01:37:42,666 --> 01:37:43,375
I'll come back tomorrow.

1158
01:37:43,500 --> 01:37:46,500
And I came back the next day and they

1159
01:37:46,500 --> 01:37:48,541
caught one and I was like running up and

1160
01:37:48,541 --> 01:37:50,541
down the beach doing fist pumps. I was

1161
01:37:50,541 --> 01:37:52,500
one of the one of the most amazing

1162
01:37:52,500 --> 01:37:55,458
discoveries ever. And it was a new

1163
01:37:55,458 --> 01:37:58,916
species of shark, obviously. And I asked

1164
01:37:58,916 --> 01:38:00,583
the guys, I said, how often do you

1165
01:38:00,583 --> 01:38:02,750
collect catch these things is, oh, we

1166
01:38:02,750 --> 01:38:03,583
caught three yesterday.

1167
01:38:03,583 --> 01:38:04,875
We just throw them back because they're

1168
01:38:04,875 --> 01:38:09,458
not worth anything. So that's phenomenal.

1169
01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:11,208
It was unbelievable. It was an amazing.

1170
01:38:11,416 --> 01:38:11,958
That was what that

1171
01:38:11,958 --> 01:38:12,458
was my last Sri Lanka's.

1172
01:38:12,500 --> 01:38:17,041
When I was my last trip there and yeah, I

1173
01:38:17,041 --> 01:38:19,458
was that was that was a wild trip. That's

1174
01:38:19,458 --> 01:38:21,000
that's to get another whole story for

1175
01:38:21,000 --> 01:38:23,833
another time. But but anyway, so I so Rex

1176
01:38:23,833 --> 01:38:25,333
was there, which is kind of a sentimental

1177
01:38:25,333 --> 01:38:27,166
thing for me because I've been

1178
01:38:27,166 --> 01:38:28,500
corresponding with them. And I met him

1179
01:38:28,500 --> 01:38:29,458
before. And then of course, Asha was there.

1180
01:38:29,458 --> 01:38:32,791
And of course, Daniel, who's whose team

1181
01:38:32,791 --> 01:38:34,791
was running the sharks international.

1182
01:38:35,125 --> 01:38:36,791
They did a phenomenal job. It was really

1183
01:38:36,791 --> 01:38:38,458
well done. There's there's a lot of

1184
01:38:38,458 --> 01:38:40,375
little bumps there kind of leading up to

1185
01:38:40,375 --> 01:38:42,166
it. But overall, I think everybody had a

1186
01:38:42,166 --> 01:38:45,250
really good time at the conference. I've

1187
01:38:45,250 --> 01:38:46,458
heard nothing but great things. Yeah.

1188
01:38:46,458 --> 01:38:50,541
From from people all ages from all around

1189
01:38:50,541 --> 01:38:52,333
the world from what for those who

1190
01:38:52,333 --> 01:38:56,916
commented where it was they just thought

1191
01:38:56,916 --> 01:38:58,625
it was absolutely amazing that they would

1192
01:38:58,625 --> 01:39:01,875
go again. Was it 800 people that yeah, I

1193
01:39:01,875 --> 01:39:04,291
kept seeing different numbers, but 800 or

1194
01:39:04,291 --> 01:39:06,458
850 people and like from 85.

1195
01:39:06,500 --> 01:39:09,333
From 85. It was 800 people, 85 countries,

1196
01:39:09,583 --> 01:39:12,333
something like that. They kept saying and

1197
01:39:12,333 --> 01:39:14,708
yeah, it was it was really good. It was

1198
01:39:14,708 --> 01:39:15,875
really good. If you're following, I'm

1199
01:39:15,875 --> 01:39:17,875
going to repost these. But yeah, I've I

1200
01:39:17,875 --> 01:39:19,708
managed to give a shout out to all of the

1201
01:39:19,708 --> 01:39:21,375
keynote speakers. We featured all of

1202
01:39:21,375 --> 01:39:24,083
their podcasts that they'd been on

1203
01:39:24,083 --> 01:39:27,250
recently. And so we'll we'll repost those

1204
01:39:27,250 --> 01:39:29,875
on my social media as well to catch up.

1205
01:39:29,875 --> 01:39:30,833
So if you didn't make sharks

1206
01:39:30,833 --> 01:39:32,250
international, you can go hear their

1207
01:39:32,250 --> 01:39:34,458
story. Yeah. From a lot of it from a lot

1208
01:39:34,458 --> 01:39:35,250
of the keynote speakers.

1209
01:39:35,458 --> 01:39:38,875
Yeah, I actually didn't catch many talks

1210
01:39:38,875 --> 01:39:40,708
myself because I was mostly talking with

1211
01:39:40,708 --> 01:39:43,875
people seeing the old friends catching up

1212
01:39:43,875 --> 01:39:45,541
with people that meet met a lot of young

1213
01:39:45,541 --> 01:39:48,041
people there. Some of them I knew the

1214
01:39:48,041 --> 01:39:49,833
name some of I didn't know just kind of

1215
01:39:49,833 --> 01:39:51,291
really kind of cool catching

1216
01:39:51,291 --> 01:39:52,458
up with them in person. Yeah.

1217
01:39:52,875 --> 01:39:55,958
Yeah, it was I thought I you know, I find

1218
01:39:55,958 --> 01:39:57,625
that at those types of conferences where

1219
01:39:57,625 --> 01:39:59,625
you've been going to them for quite a

1220
01:39:59,625 --> 01:40:01,833
while and you're in you've been in the

1221
01:40:01,833 --> 01:40:03,416
industry for quite some time, like in the

1222
01:40:03,416 --> 01:40:06,333
field for quite some time. And when you

1223
01:40:06,333 --> 01:40:08,250
when you meet up at a conference like

1224
01:40:08,250 --> 01:40:09,500
this, you know, you're going to meet new

1225
01:40:09,500 --> 01:40:11,166
people, which is always great. You know,

1226
01:40:11,166 --> 01:40:12,791
you're going to see you're going to catch

1227
01:40:12,791 --> 01:40:14,833
some sessions that are going to be like,

1228
01:40:14,833 --> 01:40:16,666
wow, this is an amazing, you know, you'll

1229
01:40:16,666 --> 01:40:17,916
look it up and you'll want to go to

1230
01:40:17,916 --> 01:40:19,625
those. But you tend to miss a lot of the

1231
01:40:19,625 --> 01:40:20,791
sessions because you're meeting you're

1232
01:40:20,791 --> 01:40:21,458
meeting with people that you haven't met with.

1233
01:40:21,500 --> 01:40:24,708
Because of geographic distances or you

1234
01:40:24,708 --> 01:40:26,125
haven't seen them for whatever for

1235
01:40:26,125 --> 01:40:28,333
whatever it's worth. Yeah, but also like,

1236
01:40:28,333 --> 01:40:29,958
you know, through the podcast to I

1237
01:40:29,958 --> 01:40:32,416
assume, you know, we get DMS from people

1238
01:40:32,416 --> 01:40:34,500
all the time, which is great, by the way,

1239
01:40:34,708 --> 01:40:37,500
and to see them in person must have been

1240
01:40:37,500 --> 01:40:39,291
a real treat to to so you're meeting new

1241
01:40:39,291 --> 01:40:40,500
people that have, you know, you have

1242
01:40:40,500 --> 01:40:42,083
they've been listening to the podcast and

1243
01:40:42,083 --> 01:40:44,000
they're asking questions about so and so

1244
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:46,333
and so and it's just great to be there.

1245
01:40:46,333 --> 01:40:47,250
And that's what a lot of these

1246
01:40:47,250 --> 01:40:49,208
conferences are like to be able to go see

1247
01:40:49,208 --> 01:40:50,458
the poster presentations and the sessions and the sessions and the.

1248
01:40:50,458 --> 01:40:53,333
The keynotes. Those are always fun, but

1249
01:40:53,333 --> 01:40:55,666
we, you know, as you know, there's always

1250
01:40:55,666 --> 01:40:58,583
a conference. The problem with

1251
01:40:58,583 --> 01:40:59,958
conferences, you can't meet, you can't go

1252
01:40:59,958 --> 01:41:01,666
to all the sessions, you know, because,

1253
01:41:01,666 --> 01:41:03,458
you know, they're concurrent and you

1254
01:41:03,458 --> 01:41:04,541
know, a lot of the times it's difficult

1255
01:41:04,541 --> 01:41:06,541
to choose which one and sometimes like I

1256
01:41:06,541 --> 01:41:08,916
like to go to a lot of the graduate

1257
01:41:08,916 --> 01:41:11,208
student like poster presentations or even

1258
01:41:11,208 --> 01:41:13,208
sessions to get to know who's coming up

1259
01:41:13,208 --> 01:41:15,833
into this into the field. But a lot of

1260
01:41:15,833 --> 01:41:17,458
the times it's, you know, you're talking

1261
01:41:17,458 --> 01:41:19,000
to people behind the scenes and you're

1262
01:41:19,000 --> 01:41:19,458
just chatting with people. And that's the.

1263
01:41:19,500 --> 01:41:23,250
That's also the fun part of of the of the

1264
01:41:23,250 --> 01:41:25,416
conferences, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

1265
01:41:25,416 --> 01:41:26,458
I mean, they say a lot of the people

1266
01:41:26,458 --> 01:41:28,666
really again, I was texting you see kind

1267
01:41:28,666 --> 01:41:30,000
of knew this, but just for people out

1268
01:41:30,000 --> 01:41:32,000
there, I gotta say it was really kind of

1269
01:41:32,000 --> 01:41:34,625
heartwarming to the number of people that

1270
01:41:34,625 --> 01:41:36,875
came up to me unsolicited and just said

1271
01:41:36,875 --> 01:41:39,333
how much they enjoyed the podcast or they

1272
01:41:39,333 --> 01:41:40,458
enjoyed watching the documentary on YouTube.

1273
01:41:41,458 --> 01:41:45,416
And I mean, I'm talking I had people from

1274
01:41:45,416 --> 01:41:49,416
like countries of Benin Guinea, Bissau,

1275
01:41:49,875 --> 01:41:55,458
Ghana, just like I mean, and there's some

1276
01:41:55,458 --> 01:41:57,416
other countries I just place you'd have

1277
01:41:57,416 --> 01:41:58,583
to go. I mean, I kind of know where they

1278
01:41:58,583 --> 01:42:00,458
are. I lived in Africa, but place you just never think about just comes in.

1279
01:42:00,458 --> 01:42:04,750
Oh, I really enjoy the podcast. Dave, you

1280
01:42:04,750 --> 01:42:06,833
know, blah, blah, blah. And a few of the

1281
01:42:06,833 --> 01:42:08,500
several of the people actually I was kind

1282
01:42:08,500 --> 01:42:09,958
of like after talk with them, I go like,

1283
01:42:09,958 --> 01:42:11,333
great. Why don't you come on the podcast?

1284
01:42:11,333 --> 01:42:13,500
So I'm going to have some more. I got it

1285
01:42:13,500 --> 01:42:16,375
got a whole slew of people that got a

1286
01:42:16,375 --> 01:42:17,875
chance to catch up with in person and

1287
01:42:17,875 --> 01:42:21,208
find out about what they're doing. And I

1288
01:42:21,208 --> 01:42:23,125
think one thing we've done very well as

1289
01:42:23,125 --> 01:42:26,041
we've had guests on from at least 50

1290
01:42:26,041 --> 01:42:27,750
countries now. And I probably picked up

1291
01:42:27,750 --> 01:42:28,458
at least another half dozen people.

1292
01:42:29,458 --> 01:42:32,833
Another half dozen to a dozen people from

1293
01:42:32,833 --> 01:42:34,791
countries that I had no idea they were

1294
01:42:34,791 --> 01:42:39,125
listening to us the podcast. So look

1295
01:42:39,125 --> 01:42:40,541
forward to that later this year. I have

1296
01:42:40,541 --> 01:42:43,500
some have some new guests on to share

1297
01:42:43,500 --> 01:42:44,541
their stories in some of

1298
01:42:44,541 --> 01:42:46,333
these countries. I can't wait.

1299
01:42:46,625 --> 01:42:48,708
Oh, yeah. No, it was it was amazing. Just

1300
01:42:48,708 --> 01:42:50,375
the people coming up there and just

1301
01:42:50,375 --> 01:42:53,875
sharing their stories on on on on where,

1302
01:42:53,875 --> 01:42:55,500
you know, on on how much they enjoyed the

1303
01:42:55,500 --> 01:42:59,750
podcast. And so, yeah. So they really

1304
01:42:59,750 --> 01:43:02,000
give us I know. I know we talked about

1305
01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:04,291
how we have probably downloads about 175

1306
01:43:04,291 --> 01:43:06,375
countries or so. But when you have to

1307
01:43:06,375 --> 01:43:09,125
have people from countries, you didn't

1308
01:43:09,125 --> 01:43:10,750
even think about saying how much they

1309
01:43:10,750 --> 01:43:11,958
enjoy the podcast. They look

1310
01:43:11,958 --> 01:43:12,833
forward to the new episodes.

1311
01:43:13,625 --> 01:43:15,500
It's like, wow, that's that's really for

1312
01:43:15,500 --> 01:43:18,208
us. It's just really rewarding to hear

1313
01:43:18,208 --> 01:43:21,500
that. Hear that type of thing. And I

1314
01:43:21,500 --> 01:43:22,958
think also that's the one of the that's

1315
01:43:22,958 --> 01:43:24,833
one of the major benefits of having a

1316
01:43:24,833 --> 01:43:26,791
conference in a country like Sri Lanka.

1317
01:43:26,791 --> 01:43:30,000
It's a lot cheaper. My assumption from,

1318
01:43:30,000 --> 01:43:32,708
you know, to go from like Thailand and

1319
01:43:32,708 --> 01:43:36,375
Singapore and Papua New Guinea to get to

1320
01:43:36,375 --> 01:43:38,583
Sri Lanka than it is to where it has been

1321
01:43:38,583 --> 01:43:40,583
in the in the past or in other places

1322
01:43:40,583 --> 01:43:42,416
like in Europe or or in

1323
01:43:42,416 --> 01:43:43,458
North America, which is.

1324
01:43:43,500 --> 01:43:45,625
It's expensive to not only go there to

1325
01:43:45,625 --> 01:43:47,000
get there, but it's also expensive when

1326
01:43:47,000 --> 01:43:49,375
you when you get there. So going into a

1327
01:43:49,375 --> 01:43:52,041
country like Sri Lanka, it opens it up to

1328
01:43:52,041 --> 01:43:54,291
a lot more people that, you know, people

1329
01:43:54,291 --> 01:43:56,333
haven't met before met each other because

1330
01:43:56,333 --> 01:43:58,083
it's been so expensive. I know

1331
01:43:58,083 --> 01:43:59,250
International Marine Conservation

1332
01:43:59,250 --> 01:44:03,708
Congress. We did a Congress in Malaysia,

1333
01:44:03,708 --> 01:44:08,125
you know, like back in 2016. And then

1334
01:44:08,125 --> 01:44:09,791
we're going, they're going back there.

1335
01:44:10,500 --> 01:44:12,500
Um, or no, I'm not sure. No, it's sorry.

1336
01:44:12,958 --> 01:44:14,333
It's it's it's international

1337
01:44:14,333 --> 01:44:16,125
international is going there next year.

1338
01:44:16,125 --> 01:44:19,541
Next 2030 2030, which which is again,

1339
01:44:19,541 --> 01:44:20,666
it's great because you're going to get

1340
01:44:20,666 --> 01:44:22,750
people from those places that get to go

1341
01:44:22,750 --> 01:44:25,208
another and it's cheaper to not only be

1342
01:44:25,208 --> 01:44:26,750
there, but also to get there, which is

1343
01:44:26,750 --> 01:44:27,666
nice. It's a more for

1344
01:44:27,666 --> 01:44:28,458
us, but we can afford it.

1345
01:44:28,458 --> 01:44:31,166
Right. Well, the thing is like if I take

1346
01:44:31,166 --> 01:44:32,791
out the airfare and I was kind of

1347
01:44:32,791 --> 01:44:35,000
fortunate that I was in I was I was going

1348
01:44:35,000 --> 01:44:37,000
to South Africa on the one project. So I

1349
01:44:37,000 --> 01:44:40,208
had my airfare cover for that part of it,

1350
01:44:40,208 --> 01:44:42,125
but I didn't have any I totally self

1351
01:44:42,125 --> 01:44:44,916
funded the the the sharks international

1352
01:44:44,916 --> 01:44:46,083
because, you know, unfortunately they

1353
01:44:46,083 --> 01:44:48,041
don't, you know, the groups most groups

1354
01:44:48,041 --> 01:44:51,541
don't like to fund any fund to talk. So I

1355
01:44:51,541 --> 01:44:53,541
but because I was in South Africa, it was

1356
01:44:53,541 --> 01:44:56,083
cheaper for me to go there from airfare.

1357
01:44:56,791 --> 01:44:58,583
But if I take the airfare, if I just took

1358
01:44:58,583 --> 01:45:01,000
the airfare out of the equation for the

1359
01:45:01,000 --> 01:45:04,000
hotel and the food registration, all

1360
01:45:04,000 --> 01:45:07,166
that, it was cheaper to go to Colombo

1361
01:45:07,166 --> 01:45:09,000
than it would cost me to go to New

1362
01:45:09,000 --> 01:45:13,166
Orleans in July for a s. Yeah, that's

1363
01:45:13,166 --> 01:45:14,625
crazy. And it was the same. It was the

1364
01:45:14,625 --> 01:45:17,083
same in 2022 when the sharks

1365
01:45:17,083 --> 01:45:18,958
international is in Valencia, Spain.

1366
01:45:20,458 --> 01:45:22,958
And the A.S. was at Spokane. It was

1367
01:45:22,958 --> 01:45:26,625
cheaper for me to go to Valencia than to

1368
01:45:26,625 --> 01:45:28,333
go to Spokane, Washington, which I'd

1369
01:45:28,333 --> 01:45:31,291
rather go to Valencia anyway. But it was

1370
01:45:31,291 --> 01:45:33,833
a but it was just just to give you an

1371
01:45:33,833 --> 01:45:37,208
idea in the cost differences to go into,

1372
01:45:37,500 --> 01:45:38,583
you know, conferences are getting so

1373
01:45:38,583 --> 01:45:39,958
expensive these days,

1374
01:45:39,958 --> 01:45:41,458
especially in North America or Europe.

1375
01:45:41,500 --> 01:45:44,791
It's just, you know, I, you know, a

1376
01:45:44,791 --> 01:45:47,000
little sidebar, but it's like they really

1377
01:45:47,000 --> 01:45:48,208
need to rethink how they're doing these

1378
01:45:48,208 --> 01:45:50,333
conferences, I think, or they're going to

1379
01:45:50,333 --> 01:45:52,583
they're going to slowly, slowly go away

1380
01:45:52,583 --> 01:45:54,250
because people just unless you have

1381
01:45:54,250 --> 01:45:55,041
funding, you just

1382
01:45:55,041 --> 01:45:56,791
cannot afford to go to them.

1383
01:45:57,458 --> 01:45:58,875
It's a tough thing. I mean, especially

1384
01:45:58,875 --> 01:46:01,166
with the world today, you know,

1385
01:46:01,166 --> 01:46:03,500
obviously, you know, airplane tickets are

1386
01:46:03,500 --> 01:46:05,041
more expensive these days around the

1387
01:46:05,041 --> 01:46:07,833
world. We're in an energy crisis at this

1388
01:46:07,833 --> 01:46:10,458
point, you know, you

1389
01:46:10,458 --> 01:46:11,458
know, gas prices went up.

1390
01:46:11,458 --> 01:46:12,375
And they were not down here, but they

1391
01:46:12,375 --> 01:46:14,916
were up at that time, they were up, why,

1392
01:46:14,916 --> 01:46:17,041
we were closer to $2 a liter, which is

1393
01:46:17,041 --> 01:46:20,250
equivalent to almost $5 a gallon, you

1394
01:46:20,250 --> 01:46:22,666
know, us. So, you know, it's, it's, it's,

1395
01:46:23,000 --> 01:46:25,000
that could be, obviously, that could be

1396
01:46:25,000 --> 01:46:26,208
difficult. You're right, though, it's,

1397
01:46:26,208 --> 01:46:27,583
you can't just assume that

1398
01:46:27,583 --> 01:46:29,750
everybody can pay their own way.

1399
01:46:30,500 --> 01:46:33,083
It's it's actually that usually doesn't

1400
01:46:33,083 --> 01:46:35,083
happen. And usually people wait on

1401
01:46:35,083 --> 01:46:36,708
funding. And if they plan it properly,

1402
01:46:37,000 --> 01:46:38,750
and they do maybe some creative

1403
01:46:38,750 --> 01:46:40,958
accounting near their fiscal year ended

1404
01:46:40,958 --> 01:46:44,500
and beginning, it may it can help. But I

1405
01:46:44,500 --> 01:46:48,000
think that that's, I think that's a, I

1406
01:46:48,000 --> 01:46:50,583
guess, an issue and a challenge for every

1407
01:46:50,583 --> 01:46:52,083
conference in in marine.

1408
01:46:52,625 --> 01:46:54,875
Yeah, well, things like the reg, like

1409
01:46:54,875 --> 01:46:56,291
things like the registration are just

1410
01:46:56,291 --> 01:46:59,875
getting untenable. The register is like,

1411
01:46:59,875 --> 01:47:01,375
what do you think? Like, what am I paying

1412
01:47:01,375 --> 01:47:03,875
for with the registration? I'm sure I

1413
01:47:03,875 --> 01:47:05,125
mean, I'm sure you could break it down. I

1414
01:47:05,125 --> 01:47:07,000
could probably give you some ideas, but

1415
01:47:07,000 --> 01:47:09,041
it's like, it's like, that's, that's

1416
01:47:09,041 --> 01:47:11,166
what's that's a big hit when you're,

1417
01:47:11,166 --> 01:47:12,458
you've got the other expenses there.

1418
01:47:12,500 --> 01:47:14,791
And then, you know, there's a lot of

1419
01:47:14,791 --> 01:47:17,208
emphasis put on student funding, which is

1420
01:47:17,208 --> 01:47:19,125
great, of course, but now when I came up,

1421
01:47:19,125 --> 01:47:20,708
there was no student funding you if

1422
01:47:20,708 --> 01:47:21,833
you're going to the student, you funded

1423
01:47:21,833 --> 01:47:24,583
yourself. And so you save up all year,

1424
01:47:24,583 --> 01:47:26,875
just so you could go to the conference.

1425
01:47:26,875 --> 01:47:28,458
And nowadays, they have a lot of student funding opportunities.

1426
01:47:28,458 --> 01:47:32,208
But then you go to, when I go to a

1427
01:47:32,208 --> 01:47:33,458
conference like this, you know, a lot of

1428
01:47:33,458 --> 01:47:35,833
the students want to come up, you know,

1429
01:47:35,833 --> 01:47:38,083
someone like myself, they want to come up

1430
01:47:38,083 --> 01:47:39,833
and meet me, you know, take pictures and

1431
01:47:39,833 --> 01:47:41,666
stuff and get and talk with me and stuff.

1432
01:47:41,666 --> 01:47:42,958
And I'm using I'm pretty accessible most

1433
01:47:42,958 --> 01:47:44,458
of the time, unless I'm giving a talk or something.

1434
01:47:44,500 --> 01:47:49,250
And I think that's something I think, you

1435
01:47:49,250 --> 01:47:50,750
know, funding agencies and conferences

1436
01:47:50,750 --> 01:47:53,625
need to think about is that, you know,

1437
01:47:54,250 --> 01:47:57,000
some of the senior people here that, you

1438
01:47:57,000 --> 01:47:59,875
know, are, you know, either either self,

1439
01:48:00,083 --> 01:48:02,291
they're self funding, even just to help

1440
01:48:02,291 --> 01:48:04,750
out like on a registration cost would be

1441
01:48:04,750 --> 01:48:05,458
would be a huge would be huge.

1442
01:48:06,458 --> 01:48:10,250
You know, especially like later in your

1443
01:48:10,250 --> 01:48:11,666
career, we're not working or not, you

1444
01:48:11,666 --> 01:48:13,791
don't have many as many grant funds and a

1445
01:48:13,791 --> 01:48:14,250
lot of those things

1446
01:48:14,250 --> 01:48:15,708
don't fund conferences.

1447
01:48:17,000 --> 01:48:17,875
I mean, it's great the students are

1448
01:48:17,875 --> 01:48:18,958
there, but it's like if the students are

1449
01:48:18,958 --> 01:48:20,833
just talking to other students, they

1450
01:48:20,833 --> 01:48:22,791
don't get a chance to meet some of the

1451
01:48:22,791 --> 01:48:24,583
people. You know, when I started out was

1452
01:48:24,583 --> 01:48:26,208
grabbing and met Eugenie Clark when I was

1453
01:48:26,208 --> 01:48:28,916
a young student, you know, many people

1454
01:48:28,916 --> 01:48:31,916
like Sonny Gruber, you know, a number of

1455
01:48:31,916 --> 01:48:33,333
other people that era and of course,

1456
01:48:33,333 --> 01:48:34,166
Leonard Capagno, I

1457
01:48:34,166 --> 01:48:34,458
talked about all the time.

1458
01:48:34,458 --> 01:48:37,500
It was great to have meet those people

1459
01:48:37,500 --> 01:48:39,458
like at conferences because you know,

1460
01:48:39,458 --> 01:48:42,250
yeah, you may not and stuff and it's kind

1461
01:48:42,250 --> 01:48:44,000
of neat, you know, looking back now.

1462
01:48:44,750 --> 01:48:46,000
Yeah, you get fond memories. I think

1463
01:48:46,000 --> 01:48:47,166
like, Oh, I remember the first time I met

1464
01:48:47,166 --> 01:48:49,708
this person or that. Yeah, sure. And I

1465
01:48:49,708 --> 01:48:51,125
get a lot of funny stories I could tell

1466
01:48:51,125 --> 01:48:52,125
the time I'll save

1467
01:48:52,125 --> 01:48:52,458
that for some other time.

1468
01:48:52,458 --> 01:48:55,916
But no, but you're right. But I think I

1469
01:48:55,916 --> 01:48:57,833
think it goes to, you know, when you look

1470
01:48:57,833 --> 01:48:59,333
at conferences all in all, this is not

1471
01:48:59,333 --> 01:49:01,125
sharks international, we're not picking

1472
01:49:01,125 --> 01:49:02,708
on it at all. I think it's more

1473
01:49:02,708 --> 01:49:05,208
conferences all around it. You know, I've

1474
01:49:05,208 --> 01:49:06,791
been in other I've worked in other

1475
01:49:06,791 --> 01:49:08,500
industries, you know, like the software

1476
01:49:08,500 --> 01:49:10,500
engineering and tech engineering and a

1477
01:49:10,500 --> 01:49:11,958
lot of times you go to a conference to

1478
01:49:11,958 --> 01:49:14,333
get specific training, you go to you need

1479
01:49:14,333 --> 01:49:16,041
a benefit out there and I'll be honest,

1480
01:49:16,041 --> 01:49:18,125
like the conference is there like upwards

1481
01:49:18,125 --> 01:49:19,916
of of $2,000

1482
01:49:19,916 --> 01:49:22,208
registration or $1,000 registration.

1483
01:49:22,791 --> 01:49:24,250
So when you go when you're ready to pay

1484
01:49:24,250 --> 01:49:26,625
that you have to justify it to your place

1485
01:49:26,625 --> 01:49:30,208
of work of, hey, like, I need to, I need

1486
01:49:30,208 --> 01:49:32,250
to go to this or like I need to go

1487
01:49:32,250 --> 01:49:33,750
because I'm going to get training on this

1488
01:49:33,750 --> 01:49:35,125
or there's specific software

1489
01:49:35,125 --> 01:49:36,458
package that I can get training.

1490
01:49:36,500 --> 01:49:40,250
I think with with marine biology, it's a

1491
01:49:40,250 --> 01:49:41,416
little different because you're like, Oh,

1492
01:49:41,416 --> 01:49:42,666
I have this paper that I want to present

1493
01:49:42,666 --> 01:49:44,083
because it's really important and I want

1494
01:49:44,083 --> 01:49:45,833
to be able to go there. We don't really

1495
01:49:45,833 --> 01:49:47,333
think of it. I've never thought of it

1496
01:49:47,333 --> 01:49:49,250
when I go there is what am I going to get

1497
01:49:49,250 --> 01:49:50,583
out of it? Am I going to get a

1498
01:49:50,583 --> 01:49:52,791
collaboration out of it? Am I going to

1499
01:49:52,791 --> 01:49:55,458
learn something new or there's somebody I

1500
01:49:55,458 --> 01:49:57,791
want to meet there? Is there going to be

1501
01:49:57,791 --> 01:49:59,708
like, you know, it's always based on I

1502
01:49:59,708 --> 01:50:02,208
got funding. Maybe I can go or my

1503
01:50:02,208 --> 01:50:04,333
professor has funding. Maybe he'll he or

1504
01:50:04,333 --> 01:50:06,458
she or they will send me to a

1505
01:50:06,458 --> 01:50:11,083
conference. There's no like question that

1506
01:50:11,083 --> 01:50:12,791
you're answering like a training or

1507
01:50:12,791 --> 01:50:14,250
something that you're saying this is

1508
01:50:14,250 --> 01:50:16,375
worth it like with the registration and

1509
01:50:16,375 --> 01:50:17,958
things like that. And I think it's a it's

1510
01:50:17,958 --> 01:50:20,000
a interesting question to think of that.

1511
01:50:20,375 --> 01:50:21,708
I haven't thought of person when I go to

1512
01:50:21,708 --> 01:50:23,708
marine biology. I'm like, is it fun? Are

1513
01:50:23,708 --> 01:50:25,250
the people great? Am I going to learn

1514
01:50:25,250 --> 01:50:27,541
something new? You know, you know, I'm

1515
01:50:27,541 --> 01:50:30,083
going now is from like when I go to IMCC.

1516
01:50:30,583 --> 01:50:32,833
I'm going to be in Scotland. I'm going to

1517
01:50:32,833 --> 01:50:35,041
be going as Pisces ocean. So okay, all

1518
01:50:35,041 --> 01:50:36,458
right now I'm going for for

1519
01:50:36,500 --> 01:50:37,625
work. So I'm going to be talking to

1520
01:50:37,625 --> 01:50:39,375
people about maybe doing some

1521
01:50:39,375 --> 01:50:41,541
collaborations or getting some work from

1522
01:50:41,541 --> 01:50:43,666
them at some point. And so now it's a

1523
01:50:43,666 --> 01:50:45,833
little bit different. But when you go as

1524
01:50:45,833 --> 01:50:47,375
a student, when you go as a professor,

1525
01:50:47,375 --> 01:50:48,958
like what are you going to you got to ask

1526
01:50:48,958 --> 01:50:50,750
yourself, like, what are you looking for?

1527
01:50:50,750 --> 01:50:52,583
You're near the end towards the end of

1528
01:50:52,583 --> 01:50:53,791
your career. You've been to these

1529
01:50:53,791 --> 01:50:55,666
conferences before you went to the one in

1530
01:50:55,666 --> 01:50:57,875
Spain. You know, what questions were you

1531
01:50:57,875 --> 01:50:59,500
asking yourself when you went to this?

1532
01:50:59,500 --> 01:51:00,791
Like, what were you like? Did you ask

1533
01:51:00,791 --> 01:51:01,916
yourself, what are you going to try and

1534
01:51:01,916 --> 01:51:04,208
get out of this conference? Yeah, well,

1535
01:51:04,208 --> 01:51:06,458
yeah. Well, when I when I was when I had

1536
01:51:06,500 --> 01:51:08,333
a full lab and I'd always have like

1537
01:51:08,333 --> 01:51:09,416
seven, eight students at these

1538
01:51:09,416 --> 01:51:12,500
conferences presenting. And so I would,

1539
01:51:12,750 --> 01:51:14,291
you know, so I there's a there's a big

1540
01:51:14,291 --> 01:51:15,625
incentive to go because I'd be there to

1541
01:51:15,625 --> 01:51:17,791
support the students and but now that I

1542
01:51:17,791 --> 01:51:20,000
don't have students here at Moss Landing,

1543
01:51:20,000 --> 01:51:22,458
for the most part, but I do, but I do

1544
01:51:22,458 --> 01:51:24,208
mentor quite a few students and pretty

1545
01:51:24,208 --> 01:51:25,875
much some of the ones I mentioned, you

1546
01:51:25,875 --> 01:51:29,208
know, I mentioned Adriana, Benaya, Julia,

1547
01:51:29,208 --> 01:51:31,458
they all presented at Sharks

1548
01:51:31,458 --> 01:51:32,958
International, even though I wasn't

1549
01:51:32,958 --> 01:51:35,375
directly involved with their with their

1550
01:51:35,375 --> 01:51:36,375
particular projects.

1551
01:51:36,500 --> 01:51:38,750
I was still there to be supportive and

1552
01:51:38,750 --> 01:51:40,041
everything and kind of it

1553
01:51:40,041 --> 01:51:41,000
was kind of cool to see.

1554
01:51:41,000 --> 01:51:42,875
But a lot of it at this point in time is

1555
01:51:42,875 --> 01:51:47,291
just to be able to just more just

1556
01:51:47,291 --> 01:51:49,083
personal, just to keep in

1557
01:51:49,083 --> 01:51:50,666
contact, keep my finger in the pie with

1558
01:51:50,666 --> 01:51:52,208
people, especially I think

1559
01:51:52,208 --> 01:51:53,375
this is where this is where it

1560
01:51:53,375 --> 01:51:56,125
comes into doing things like the podcast

1561
01:51:56,125 --> 01:51:57,208
that I just mentioned. I

1562
01:51:57,208 --> 01:51:58,500
mean, it was great hearing

1563
01:51:58,500 --> 01:52:02,375
feedback from people on the podcast. And

1564
01:52:02,375 --> 01:52:03,500
then also, like I said,

1565
01:52:03,500 --> 01:52:04,500
there's a number of young people.

1566
01:52:04,541 --> 01:52:06,000
I was like, wow, I didn't know you were

1567
01:52:06,000 --> 01:52:07,166
doing anything in Ghana.

1568
01:52:07,875 --> 01:52:09,500
I didn't know. Right. Some

1569
01:52:09,500 --> 01:52:11,375
people I knew the name, but I hadn't

1570
01:52:11,375 --> 01:52:13,291
really know them at all. And so I had a

1571
01:52:13,291 --> 01:52:14,000
chance to make those

1572
01:52:14,000 --> 01:52:16,333
connections. And as I say, stay tuned

1573
01:52:16,333 --> 01:52:17,583
later this year, you're going to see a

1574
01:52:17,583 --> 01:52:18,583
number of people that

1575
01:52:19,166 --> 01:52:21,083
that I literally made the connections

1576
01:52:21,083 --> 01:52:22,583
with it there and there and

1577
01:52:22,583 --> 01:52:25,041
at Sharks International. And

1578
01:52:25,041 --> 01:52:26,125
I say a lot of the people because it's

1579
01:52:26,125 --> 01:52:26,916
such a big conference, a

1580
01:52:26,916 --> 01:52:27,833
lot of the people that I

1581
01:52:28,208 --> 01:52:30,250
I only see every few years are at this

1582
01:52:30,250 --> 01:52:32,875
conference. You know, I could run and

1583
01:52:32,875 --> 01:52:33,333
most of them have been

1584
01:52:33,333 --> 01:52:35,083
on the podcast, but it's nice to see them

1585
01:52:35,083 --> 01:52:36,625
socially and, you know,

1586
01:52:36,625 --> 01:52:37,375
have a beer or something

1587
01:52:37,375 --> 01:52:39,000
with them and just kind of what they're

1588
01:52:39,000 --> 01:52:42,208
doing. Yeah. So, so yes,

1589
01:52:42,208 --> 01:52:43,666
it's a bit of professional

1590
01:52:43,666 --> 01:52:45,500
development, but it's also just kind of a

1591
01:52:45,500 --> 01:52:47,000
little bit social. And this

1592
01:52:47,000 --> 01:52:48,541
year I did present, which I

1593
01:52:48,541 --> 01:52:50,208
hadn't done in a few years, present gave,

1594
01:52:50,708 --> 01:52:52,083
gave an actual

1595
01:52:52,083 --> 01:52:56,250
presentation, short presentation on a

1596
01:52:56,250 --> 01:52:58,250
guitar fish stuff we're working with. And

1597
01:52:58,250 --> 01:52:59,625
most of the co-authors are

1598
01:52:59,625 --> 01:53:01,166
younger people, you know,

1599
01:53:01,583 --> 01:53:04,000
late, late twenties, 30ish or so. And as

1600
01:53:04,000 --> 01:53:04,791
you and I talked off

1601
01:53:04,791 --> 01:53:06,291
air, it's kind of funny if,

1602
01:53:06,708 --> 01:53:08,583
if you saw any of my posts on Instagram

1603
01:53:08,583 --> 01:53:09,500
or if you were there,

1604
01:53:09,500 --> 01:53:10,416
you'll, you'll know what I'm

1605
01:53:10,416 --> 01:53:12,375
talking about. But I, I asked my first

1606
01:53:12,375 --> 01:53:14,250
question. I popped up a picture of a

1607
01:53:14,250 --> 01:53:15,791
well-known guitarist and I

1608
01:53:16,500 --> 01:53:17,958
asked if anybody out there in the

1609
01:53:17,958 --> 01:53:20,125
audience that was not named Rachel agents

1610
01:53:20,125 --> 01:53:21,583
and knows who under,

1611
01:53:21,583 --> 01:53:24,291
who's under 40, who knows who has ever

1612
01:53:24,291 --> 01:53:25,833
heard of Eddie Van Halen and just

1613
01:53:25,833 --> 01:53:27,791
crickets. Nobody had

1614
01:53:27,833 --> 01:53:30,541
a freaking clue as you guys know, Van

1615
01:53:30,541 --> 01:53:32,625
Halen, anybody? No, just nothing

1616
01:53:32,625 --> 01:53:33,708
crickets. Never heard

1617
01:53:33,708 --> 01:53:36,041
of them. Never. So you really feel like

1618
01:53:36,041 --> 01:53:40,333
old then as far as, as far as

1619
01:53:40,333 --> 01:53:43,208
life goes. But anyway, I had,

1620
01:53:43,208 --> 01:53:45,500
it was a fun talk and that was actually

1621
01:53:45,500 --> 01:53:47,000
kind of just a quick story.

1622
01:53:47,000 --> 01:53:47,791
I'll probably talk about this

1623
01:53:47,791 --> 01:53:50,541
more in a separate, separate episode. But

1624
01:53:50,541 --> 01:53:52,416
I, I, when I first went to

1625
01:53:52,416 --> 01:53:53,791
South Africa 40 years ago,

1626
01:53:54,541 --> 01:53:58,541
Leonard Kapanja sent me out off to go to

1627
01:53:58,541 --> 01:53:59,750
a place called bird Island

1628
01:53:59,750 --> 01:54:01,125
off the South African coast

1629
01:54:01,750 --> 01:54:05,166
to look for a guitar fish that nobody at

1630
01:54:05,166 --> 01:54:06,416
that time, nobody had seen

1631
01:54:06,416 --> 01:54:09,125
in like what, 60 years or so.

1632
01:54:09,916 --> 01:54:12,458
And, and so I literally like about six

1633
01:54:12,458 --> 01:54:13,500
weeks after I arrived, I

1634
01:54:13,500 --> 01:54:14,791
was standing out in a field

1635
01:54:15,166 --> 01:54:17,000
near, near a place called Bushman's

1636
01:54:17,000 --> 01:54:19,458
river, waiting for a South African

1637
01:54:19,458 --> 01:54:20,500
defense force helicopter to

1638
01:54:20,541 --> 01:54:22,750
come pick me up. And it was my first

1639
01:54:22,750 --> 01:54:25,250
helicopter ride. And we went out, we

1640
01:54:25,250 --> 01:54:26,416
cruised along the coast.

1641
01:54:26,416 --> 01:54:27,708
The guys were a couple of young guys

1642
01:54:27,708 --> 01:54:29,208
about my age at the time and said, Hey,

1643
01:54:29,208 --> 01:54:29,791
you want to go look for

1644
01:54:29,791 --> 01:54:31,833
some sharks? And so we cruised along the

1645
01:54:31,833 --> 01:54:32,833
coast. The first time I got to

1646
01:54:32,833 --> 01:54:34,125
see sharks from a helicopter.

1647
01:54:34,458 --> 01:54:36,250
And that was pretty, that was pretty

1648
01:54:36,250 --> 01:54:38,625
cool. Yeah. And we went to bird Island to

1649
01:54:38,625 --> 01:54:39,666
start, to start this

1650
01:54:39,666 --> 01:54:43,291
journey. And it was short story was that

1651
01:54:43,291 --> 01:54:44,708
was 40 years ago. And after,

1652
01:54:44,958 --> 01:54:46,583
after 40 years, we finally,

1653
01:54:46,625 --> 01:54:49,000
I finally found this guitar fish. Nobody

1654
01:54:49,000 --> 01:54:49,708
had seen it for like

1655
01:54:49,708 --> 01:54:51,500
literally a hundred years.

1656
01:54:52,375 --> 01:54:53,791
And in this paper I've been working out

1657
01:54:53,791 --> 01:54:55,666
with these young people. We

1658
01:54:55,666 --> 01:54:56,916
found that we found this guitar

1659
01:54:56,916 --> 01:54:59,208
fish had not been seen for literally a

1660
01:54:59,208 --> 01:55:01,583
hundred years. That's amazing. And so

1661
01:55:01,583 --> 01:55:02,375
that's a whole story

1662
01:55:02,375 --> 01:55:04,083
in itself. And I talked about that in my

1663
01:55:04,083 --> 01:55:06,041
presentation about folks

1664
01:55:06,041 --> 01:55:07,500
a little bit on that, just

1665
01:55:07,500 --> 01:55:09,750
because here's persistence and trying to

1666
01:55:09,750 --> 01:55:10,750
see if you can find a shark

1667
01:55:10,750 --> 01:55:12,291
that are in this case, a flat

1668
01:55:12,333 --> 01:55:15,083
shark, nobody's seen. So that was quite,

1669
01:55:15,291 --> 01:55:17,166
that was kind of a cool story.

1670
01:55:17,166 --> 01:55:17,958
And again, I had, it was nice

1671
01:55:17,958 --> 01:55:20,041
because I had people coming up, you know,

1672
01:55:20,041 --> 01:55:20,958
that weren't even, not

1673
01:55:20,958 --> 01:55:21,875
only weren't even born, they

1674
01:55:21,875 --> 01:55:23,791
weren't even in the planning stages. I'm

1675
01:55:23,791 --> 01:55:24,666
sure at that point, because

1676
01:55:24,666 --> 01:55:25,750
they weren't born until the

1677
01:55:25,750 --> 01:55:29,041
mid late nineties. Tell her how much they

1678
01:55:29,041 --> 01:55:30,458
enjoyed hearing that story about this

1679
01:55:30,458 --> 01:55:32,041
stuff. And then I just

1680
01:55:32,041 --> 01:55:34,041
had a man. Yeah. So it was kind of cool.

1681
01:55:34,541 --> 01:55:35,958
Now, let me ask you this. We're kind of

1682
01:55:35,958 --> 01:55:36,708
coming to the end of

1683
01:55:36,708 --> 01:55:38,166
time here. And I know we could, you and I

1684
01:55:38,166 --> 01:55:39,000
could talk about this

1685
01:55:39,000 --> 01:55:40,500
forever. We have talked about it

1686
01:55:40,541 --> 01:55:42,750
quite a bit. We will after this

1687
01:55:42,750 --> 01:55:46,791
recording, but when we had Daniel, Daniel

1688
01:55:46,791 --> 01:55:48,541
for error on, I asked him,

1689
01:55:48,541 --> 01:55:51,083
we asked him, like, Hey, like, what's the

1690
01:55:51,083 --> 01:55:52,791
point? What's the mission of this

1691
01:55:52,791 --> 01:55:53,916
conference? And I think

1692
01:55:53,916 --> 01:55:56,041
the mission was not just to talk about

1693
01:55:56,041 --> 01:55:57,125
shark science, but also

1694
01:55:57,125 --> 01:55:59,166
around the people that are around

1695
01:55:59,166 --> 01:56:02,291
these sharks that, in the villages and in

1696
01:56:02,291 --> 01:56:03,500
the towns and in cities

1697
01:56:03,500 --> 01:56:04,875
along the coastal areas, and

1698
01:56:05,750 --> 01:56:07,500
to really tell those stories and to

1699
01:56:07,500 --> 01:56:08,416
really look at from a

1700
01:56:08,416 --> 01:56:09,583
science perspective, how

1701
01:56:10,625 --> 01:56:13,458
science can really help coastal people,

1702
01:56:13,458 --> 01:56:14,166
whether they're fishing

1703
01:56:14,166 --> 01:56:15,791
villages, whether they're tourism

1704
01:56:15,833 --> 01:56:17,916
villages, or whether just villages that

1705
01:56:17,916 --> 01:56:19,375
have something different or towns and

1706
01:56:19,375 --> 01:56:20,375
cities that have something different.

1707
01:56:21,416 --> 01:56:24,041
And with your experience of going there,

1708
01:56:24,041 --> 01:56:25,791
do you find that a lot of the sessions,

1709
01:56:25,791 --> 01:56:27,125
do you find that a lot of people were

1710
01:56:27,125 --> 01:56:28,291
talking about this

1711
01:56:28,291 --> 01:56:30,000
type of thing in terms of

1712
01:56:30,208 --> 01:56:32,333
working with people? Normally the sharks

1713
01:56:32,333 --> 01:56:34,416
are the hero. In this case, it seemed

1714
01:56:34,416 --> 01:56:36,666
like Daniel, the point that Daniel was

1715
01:56:36,666 --> 01:56:38,041
trying to say was that the people are the

1716
01:56:38,041 --> 01:56:39,875
hero and how we can help them.

1717
01:56:39,916 --> 01:56:42,750
Where the fields gone, and I can speak

1718
01:56:42,750 --> 01:56:45,375
this now, you know, with over 40 years

1719
01:56:45,375 --> 01:56:46,500
experience in this thing,

1720
01:56:47,416 --> 01:56:48,875
you see, I talked a little bit about the

1721
01:56:48,875 --> 01:56:49,750
science communication

1722
01:56:49,750 --> 01:56:51,958
or lack of it before.

1723
01:56:52,958 --> 01:56:54,750
There's a, I had to say one of the

1724
01:56:54,750 --> 01:56:56,208
takeaways was a huge

1725
01:56:56,208 --> 01:56:59,125
emphasis on science communication.

1726
01:57:00,375 --> 01:57:03,333
I'd say less hard science and more

1727
01:57:03,333 --> 01:57:05,416
science communication, right?

1728
01:57:05,708 --> 01:57:09,125
Storytelling that type of stuff really

1729
01:57:09,125 --> 01:57:11,916
seemed to be kind of at the core of a lot

1730
01:57:11,916 --> 01:57:13,333
of the lot of the presentations.

1731
01:57:14,250 --> 01:57:16,166
I mean, they're doing science, but there,

1732
01:57:16,375 --> 01:57:20,083
but there's a huge push on the science

1733
01:57:20,083 --> 01:57:21,916
communication aspect of it.

1734
01:57:22,125 --> 01:57:25,291
That seems to be really a big emphasis on

1735
01:57:25,291 --> 01:57:26,291
a lot of the stuff, which

1736
01:57:26,291 --> 01:57:28,333
is, which has been a change.

1737
01:57:28,375 --> 01:57:29,875
And for me, it's at this point seeing

1738
01:57:29,875 --> 01:57:32,916
this trajectory from where we were where

1739
01:57:32,916 --> 01:57:34,708
there wasn't anything called shark

1740
01:57:34,708 --> 01:57:35,833
conservation to now.

1741
01:57:35,833 --> 01:57:38,083
Now the shark conservation, a big aspect

1742
01:57:38,083 --> 01:57:40,041
of it, the whole science communications

1743
01:57:40,041 --> 01:57:43,083
becoming a whole, a whole is what has

1744
01:57:43,083 --> 01:57:45,250
become a whole area that a lot of people

1745
01:57:45,250 --> 01:57:46,750
talk about in terms of

1746
01:57:46,750 --> 01:57:47,500
with their presentations.

1747
01:57:48,708 --> 01:57:51,916
And so it's still kind of in a burgeoning

1748
01:57:51,916 --> 01:57:55,041
stage, but it'll be interesting to see

1749
01:57:55,041 --> 01:57:57,333
where it goes in terms of how it turned

1750
01:57:57,333 --> 01:57:58,666
to the science and stuff

1751
01:57:58,666 --> 01:58:01,166
as far as where it went.

1752
01:58:01,416 --> 01:58:03,458
And so you saw, you saw a lot of that.

1753
01:58:03,458 --> 01:58:06,000
All of the presentations really folks and

1754
01:58:06,000 --> 01:58:06,708
hit a lot on the

1755
01:58:06,708 --> 01:58:08,500
communication aspect of it.

1756
01:58:08,708 --> 01:58:09,416
Yeah, interesting.

1757
01:58:10,000 --> 01:58:10,708
So, yes, that was a

1758
01:58:10,708 --> 01:58:11,791
real, that was a real thing.

1759
01:58:11,833 --> 01:58:14,291
And I'll talk more about that, like off

1760
01:58:14,291 --> 01:58:15,916
air and stuff, but it was a real just

1761
01:58:15,916 --> 01:58:17,375
kind of interesting for me being around

1762
01:58:17,375 --> 01:58:19,708
this long and and then seeing young

1763
01:58:19,708 --> 01:58:21,000
people that all they know

1764
01:58:21,000 --> 01:58:21,958
is science communication.

1765
01:58:22,208 --> 01:58:23,416
That's really what they're at.

1766
01:58:24,000 --> 01:58:24,791
And they're doing less.

1767
01:58:25,625 --> 01:58:27,333
And I'm not trying to diminish anything,

1768
01:58:27,333 --> 01:58:28,541
but they're doing less of what I'd call

1769
01:58:28,541 --> 01:58:30,916
the hard science and more having the

1770
01:58:30,916 --> 01:58:32,458
storytelling science communication.

1771
01:58:32,666 --> 01:58:34,500
Again, there's certainly a need for that

1772
01:58:34,500 --> 01:58:35,500
to communicate with people.

1773
01:58:36,333 --> 01:58:38,375
But I still think a thing of a lot of

1774
01:58:38,375 --> 01:58:40,291
people are missing is you need to

1775
01:58:40,291 --> 01:58:44,625
communicate with the average person and

1776
01:58:44,625 --> 01:58:47,166
the non-science person.

1777
01:58:47,166 --> 01:58:48,041
You need to, you

1778
01:58:48,041 --> 01:58:49,166
don't need to demean him.

1779
01:58:49,166 --> 01:58:50,416
You don't need to talk down to him.

1780
01:58:50,416 --> 01:58:51,875
You just need to come up.

1781
01:58:51,875 --> 01:58:53,125
And this is where I go back to John

1782
01:58:53,125 --> 01:58:56,666
McOsker decades ago, communicate with

1783
01:58:56,666 --> 01:58:57,916
them in an intelligent,

1784
01:58:58,166 --> 01:59:00,500
but just a non-jargon way.

1785
01:59:00,500 --> 01:59:00,708
Yeah.

1786
01:59:01,500 --> 01:59:02,458
And you can do that.

1787
01:59:02,750 --> 01:59:05,125
And if you can do that, you're going to

1788
01:59:05,125 --> 01:59:06,333
you're going to be way ahead of the game.

1789
01:59:06,333 --> 01:59:07,208
Kind of like you're talking to your

1790
01:59:07,208 --> 01:59:08,500
friends or your family and explaining

1791
01:59:08,500 --> 01:59:10,416
what you do and things like that. Right.

1792
01:59:10,500 --> 01:59:10,708
Yeah.

1793
01:59:10,916 --> 01:59:11,541
In simple terms.

1794
01:59:11,916 --> 01:59:13,125
The interesting thing about this and

1795
01:59:13,125 --> 01:59:14,250
you're right, there's a lot of more

1796
01:59:14,250 --> 01:59:15,833
storytelling going on, especially from

1797
01:59:15,833 --> 01:59:17,083
younger people who are using the

1798
01:59:17,083 --> 01:59:19,000
technologies that we have in social media

1799
01:59:19,000 --> 01:59:20,916
and really, you know, growing up on it

1800
01:59:20,916 --> 01:59:22,291
and and using it to the thing.

1801
01:59:22,541 --> 01:59:24,333
Here's the thing that we're at, in my

1802
01:59:24,333 --> 01:59:26,458
opinion, with my history of storytelling

1803
01:59:26,458 --> 01:59:27,833
and as well as science.

1804
01:59:28,875 --> 01:59:30,875
Funding either happens one or the other,

1805
01:59:31,416 --> 01:59:32,625
you know, the scientist is not

1806
01:59:32,625 --> 01:59:34,500
incentivized to do science communication

1807
01:59:34,500 --> 01:59:35,666
because they're not necessarily getting

1808
01:59:35,666 --> 01:59:36,916
paid for science communication.

1809
01:59:37,166 --> 01:59:37,916
They're getting paid to do

1810
01:59:37,916 --> 01:59:39,750
the science and vice versa.

1811
01:59:40,166 --> 01:59:41,708
And I think what happens is we get a lot

1812
01:59:41,708 --> 01:59:43,291
of people like Christian Parsons and

1813
01:59:43,291 --> 01:59:45,083
others who have done a great job in

1814
01:59:45,083 --> 01:59:48,958
communicating science, but they can't go

1815
01:59:48,958 --> 01:59:50,208
to find because it's a lot of times

1816
01:59:50,208 --> 01:59:50,916
because they can't sign to

1817
01:59:50,916 --> 01:59:52,958
find a science job, you know.

1818
01:59:53,125 --> 01:59:55,791
And so I think there's if we can marry

1819
01:59:55,791 --> 01:59:58,833
the two together, you know, labs and and

1820
01:59:58,833 --> 02:00:02,833
and nonprofit organizations and for

1821
02:00:02,833 --> 02:00:04,458
profit organizations can marry those two

1822
02:00:04,458 --> 02:00:08,291
together and and fund both, which we're

1823
02:00:08,291 --> 02:00:09,500
starting to see it a little bit more.

1824
02:00:09,750 --> 02:00:11,333
But we I feel like we need to see that a

1825
02:00:11,333 --> 02:00:13,291
little bit more so that we incentivize

1826
02:00:13,291 --> 02:00:15,708
our scientists to be able to speak about

1827
02:00:15,708 --> 02:00:17,291
the science that they're doing to make it

1828
02:00:17,291 --> 02:00:19,458
part of their jobs and not just an extra.

1829
02:00:20,000 --> 02:00:20,666
You know what I mean?

1830
02:00:21,083 --> 02:00:22,375
Yeah, I see what you're saying.

1831
02:00:22,375 --> 02:00:23,291
I know I just see what you're saying.

1832
02:00:23,500 --> 02:00:25,750
A thing that I see and I know some people

1833
02:00:25,750 --> 02:00:27,208
get really upset about this, especially

1834
02:00:27,208 --> 02:00:28,375
people that are really good in the social

1835
02:00:28,375 --> 02:00:30,250
communication is that there's a

1836
02:00:30,250 --> 02:00:31,416
definitely there's a study

1837
02:00:31,416 --> 02:00:33,000
done about 10, 12 years ago.

1838
02:00:33,083 --> 02:00:35,000
But, you know, where the guy developed a

1839
02:00:35,000 --> 02:00:36,333
thing called the K index.

1840
02:00:36,875 --> 02:00:37,125
Right.

1841
02:00:37,375 --> 02:00:38,708
Stand for the Kardashian index.

1842
02:00:38,708 --> 02:00:39,875
I think you know, I've talked about it.

1843
02:00:39,875 --> 02:00:40,958
And it really is true.

1844
02:00:41,500 --> 02:00:42,625
And I see this where you see

1845
02:00:42,625 --> 02:00:43,791
people that do really good.

1846
02:00:43,791 --> 02:00:44,375
They're really good on

1847
02:00:44,375 --> 02:00:45,083
the social communication.

1848
02:00:45,541 --> 02:00:49,083
But I certainly wouldn't put them in a

1849
02:00:49,083 --> 02:00:50,875
different category and say some people

1850
02:00:50,875 --> 02:00:53,791
that are really I've taught science.

1851
02:00:53,791 --> 02:00:56,166
I mean, really doing some work for sure.

1852
02:00:56,333 --> 02:00:57,791
But but they don't have because it take

1853
02:00:57,791 --> 02:01:00,125
as you know, it takes a lot of time to do

1854
02:01:00,125 --> 02:01:01,250
science communication.

1855
02:01:02,000 --> 02:01:03,083
Yeah. Then you see people

1856
02:01:03,083 --> 02:01:04,750
that are doing the science.

1857
02:01:04,750 --> 02:01:05,708
They don't have the time for that.

1858
02:01:05,708 --> 02:01:06,666
And the people that are good to science

1859
02:01:06,666 --> 02:01:08,208
communication don't really have the time

1860
02:01:08,208 --> 02:01:10,250
for doing that, doing a lot

1861
02:01:10,250 --> 02:01:11,750
of this, the science stuff.

1862
02:01:12,041 --> 02:01:13,416
And this is where I think it needs to be

1863
02:01:13,416 --> 02:01:15,458
married together where you're right.

1864
02:01:15,500 --> 02:01:16,541
I don't think

1865
02:01:16,541 --> 02:01:17,291
everybody should be doing both.

1866
02:01:17,666 --> 02:01:19,708
But at least in each lab, there should be

1867
02:01:19,708 --> 02:01:20,375
a science communication

1868
02:01:20,375 --> 02:01:21,791
person in each nonprofit.

1869
02:01:22,000 --> 02:01:23,500
There should be a division of science.

1870
02:01:23,500 --> 02:01:25,250
And what you're seeing a lot more of in

1871
02:01:25,250 --> 02:01:27,208
the nonprofit sector, they're hiring more

1872
02:01:27,208 --> 02:01:28,833
and they're well-paid jobs for a lot of

1873
02:01:28,833 --> 02:01:29,875
them that are like a lot

1874
02:01:29,875 --> 02:01:31,000
of the bigger organizations.

1875
02:01:31,833 --> 02:01:32,625
But you're right, because like the

1876
02:01:32,625 --> 02:01:34,375
scientist who's doing amazing science may

1877
02:01:34,375 --> 02:01:36,333
not have the ability to communicate that.

1878
02:01:36,333 --> 02:01:38,041
So science communicator can come in,

1879
02:01:38,041 --> 02:01:40,375
understand what it's all about and then

1880
02:01:40,375 --> 02:01:42,000
be able to communicate to that audience

1881
02:01:42,000 --> 02:01:43,458
that they want to communicate.

1882
02:01:43,500 --> 02:01:45,291
I mean, I think there's really good.

1883
02:01:45,291 --> 02:01:46,666
There's definitely value

1884
02:01:46,666 --> 02:01:47,916
in having both on your team.

1885
02:01:48,291 --> 02:01:49,458
Yeah. And I think the one thing like, you

1886
02:01:49,458 --> 02:01:50,875
know, because people say, well, you do

1887
02:01:50,875 --> 02:01:52,375
science communication now, Dave.

1888
02:01:52,375 --> 02:01:54,000
And I said, well, yeah, but I've had like

1889
02:01:54,000 --> 02:01:56,041
a, you know, 45 year career where I did

1890
02:01:56,041 --> 02:01:57,458
stuff in the science communication.

1891
02:01:58,166 --> 02:01:59,958
I've just started doing. That's why I

1892
02:01:59,958 --> 02:02:00,625
want to do some of these.

1893
02:02:01,000 --> 02:02:02,166
That's one of the things that I'm doing,

1894
02:02:02,166 --> 02:02:03,416
these things like this documentary

1895
02:02:03,416 --> 02:02:04,583
series, Searching for Lost

1896
02:02:04,583 --> 02:02:05,666
Sharks, Extinct or Alive.

1897
02:02:06,125 --> 02:02:07,041
Yeah. Go check it out on YouTube.

1898
02:02:08,000 --> 02:02:10,458
I can tell a story like how shark

1899
02:02:10,458 --> 02:02:12,750
conservation came about because I lived

1900
02:02:12,750 --> 02:02:15,041
it. Yeah. I was there. I mean, a younger

1901
02:02:15,041 --> 02:02:17,208
person, you know, like half my age

1902
02:02:17,208 --> 02:02:19,416
doesn't have that frame of reference in

1903
02:02:19,416 --> 02:02:20,500
30 years. They will.

1904
02:02:20,958 --> 02:02:23,083
But exactly. But I have that frame of

1905
02:02:23,083 --> 02:02:24,458
reference. And so I try to tell those

1906
02:02:24,458 --> 02:02:27,000
stories, as you know, to share, to kind

1907
02:02:27,000 --> 02:02:28,458
of put some people have a bit of a

1908
02:02:28,458 --> 02:02:30,958
history on what's where we've come from.

1909
02:02:31,333 --> 02:02:32,375
They'll know where they know where we're

1910
02:02:32,375 --> 02:02:34,166
at, but then they can like hopefully look

1911
02:02:34,166 --> 02:02:35,625
to the future. Yeah.

1912
02:02:36,208 --> 02:02:38,958
Exactly. I completely agree. That's

1913
02:02:38,958 --> 02:02:40,625
right. It goes, you know, I think we can

1914
02:02:40,625 --> 02:02:41,916
do an entire episode on this.

1915
02:02:41,916 --> 02:02:43,125
And maybe we should get a guest that does

1916
02:02:43,125 --> 02:02:46,416
science communication and science as well

1917
02:02:46,416 --> 02:02:48,541
to talk about some of the the advantages

1918
02:02:48,541 --> 02:02:50,208
and disadvantages of doing it

1919
02:02:50,208 --> 02:02:51,583
and where the field is going.

1920
02:02:51,791 --> 02:02:52,708
Because I think you're right. I think

1921
02:02:52,708 --> 02:02:55,958
we're in a very interesting age of of

1922
02:02:55,958 --> 02:02:58,708
science and getting out to beyond the

1923
02:02:58,708 --> 02:03:00,333
choir, beyond the conferences.

1924
02:03:00,666 --> 02:03:03,500
And and how do we get into the homes of

1925
02:03:03,500 --> 02:03:04,791
people and be able to do that?

1926
02:03:04,833 --> 02:03:06,541
How do you make use of these technologies

1927
02:03:06,541 --> 02:03:09,208
again? Because they're, you know, I think

1928
02:03:09,208 --> 02:03:10,958
you need to talk to you. Yeah. That's

1929
02:03:10,958 --> 02:03:12,458
all. Yeah. That's that should be said. We

1930
02:03:12,458 --> 02:03:14,458
should try to have this story on it.

1931
02:03:14,625 --> 02:03:15,708
One thing before we go, I just got to

1932
02:03:15,708 --> 02:03:18,875
share with everybody is after after Sri

1933
02:03:18,875 --> 02:03:20,791
Lanka at the end of the conference there,

1934
02:03:20,791 --> 02:03:22,458
I had to go tick off

1935
02:03:22,458 --> 02:03:23,875
of one of my lifetime.

1936
02:03:24,083 --> 02:03:26,750
But listening and went down to the

1937
02:03:26,750 --> 02:03:29,916
Maldives with a with a with a group of

1938
02:03:29,916 --> 02:03:33,333
students from the Dolby lab. Rachel

1939
02:03:33,333 --> 02:03:36,000
Ayshenson, who is from former student of

1940
02:03:36,000 --> 02:03:41,916
mine, Amanda Arnold and Jay, I forget

1941
02:03:41,916 --> 02:03:43,083
Jay's last name off the top

1942
02:03:43,083 --> 02:03:44,416
and his girlfriend's stuff.

1943
02:03:44,416 --> 02:03:47,500
But we had a chance. And we had a we had

1944
02:03:47,500 --> 02:03:49,208
an awesome time. I got to go diving,

1945
02:03:49,625 --> 02:03:50,708
which was kind of again,

1946
02:03:51,000 --> 02:03:52,500
water's about 90 degrees Fahrenheit.

1947
02:03:53,333 --> 02:03:57,000
So it was terrible. Horrible. And they

1948
02:03:57,000 --> 02:03:58,458
kept saying, well, this is where the

1949
02:03:58,458 --> 02:04:00,083
locals are getting. Well, this really

1950
02:04:00,083 --> 02:04:01,750
isn't the best time of year to go there.

1951
02:04:03,125 --> 02:04:04,916
The one the one thing that people follow

1952
02:04:04,916 --> 02:04:07,166
the podcast know this is my thing is I

1953
02:04:07,166 --> 02:04:08,500
was hoping to really hoping to see the

1954
02:04:08,500 --> 02:04:09,708
whale sharks there.

1955
02:04:09,708 --> 02:04:10,333
And how did it happen?

1956
02:04:11,000 --> 02:04:14,041
No. But but I was pulling up. I was

1957
02:04:14,041 --> 02:04:15,875
pulling up pictures from other people

1958
02:04:15,875 --> 02:04:16,458
that went to different

1959
02:04:16,458 --> 02:04:17,541
islands from the conference.

1960
02:04:17,958 --> 02:04:20,958
No, pull our block. Oh, damn it. And

1961
02:04:20,958 --> 02:04:22,333
they're showing these pictures of these

1962
02:04:22,333 --> 02:04:24,291
freaking whale sharks are diving with.

1963
02:04:24,875 --> 02:04:27,708
I was like, damn it on the wrong island.

1964
02:04:29,500 --> 02:04:33,791
Yeah. So these invasive one day, we're

1965
02:04:33,791 --> 02:04:34,375
going to have to do

1966
02:04:34,375 --> 02:04:35,541
it, Dave. One day. Yeah.

1967
02:04:35,750 --> 02:04:37,500
I don't have specifically just for whale

1968
02:04:37,500 --> 02:04:40,125
sharks. Like, yes. Well, have to be like

1969
02:04:40,125 --> 02:04:42,458
Mexico or something and just be like

1970
02:04:42,458 --> 02:04:43,166
during the right time

1971
02:04:43,166 --> 02:04:44,083
of year and just go.

1972
02:04:44,500 --> 02:04:46,333
Yeah. But I will say finally, I just say

1973
02:04:46,333 --> 02:04:49,583
like it was great. Rachel, Amanda, Jay,

1974
02:04:50,041 --> 02:04:52,791
Janice's amazing time. Great.

1975
02:04:53,125 --> 02:04:54,500
Having a good good time. It couldn't have

1976
02:04:54,500 --> 02:04:56,500
asked for a better first experience in

1977
02:04:56,500 --> 02:04:58,750
the Maldives. And so it was like

1978
02:04:58,750 --> 02:05:00,500
definitely a lifetime bucket list for me.

1979
02:05:00,708 --> 02:05:04,250
So anyway, thanks a lot for the time here

1980
02:05:04,250 --> 02:05:06,875
and everyone. Oh, thank you. Thank you

1981
02:05:06,875 --> 02:05:08,166
for all the adventures, man.

1982
02:05:08,250 --> 02:05:10,291
Like doing doing this is tiring for

1983
02:05:10,291 --> 02:05:13,541
anybody. And so it's nice to be able for

1984
02:05:13,541 --> 02:05:14,708
you to be able to tell us about these

1985
02:05:14,708 --> 02:05:16,458
adventures and the tips that you provide.

1986
02:05:16,458 --> 02:05:18,416
It's always great. So thanks a lot, Dave.

1987
02:05:18,416 --> 02:05:19,916
We appreciate it. And we'll see you next

1988
02:05:19,916 --> 02:05:21,375
episode. Yep. We'll

1989
02:05:21,375 --> 02:05:22,750
do. All right. Bye bye.