What Happens If Canada Runs Out of Forage Fish?

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Imagine a fish the size of your finger

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that we call forage fish could be

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capelin, herring, menhaden,

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all these, their anchovies,

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all these different types

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of fish that are so small,

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we don't really think about playing an

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important role in nature, in the ocean,

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and keeping food webs

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together, but they play a huge role.

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And we are losing these fish.

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We are fishing down the food chain for

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fish feed, for aquaculture,

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and other things that are helping the

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human beings and helping us eat, but not

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helping the ocean at all.

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And a new report called Little Being Big

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Foundation released by

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Oceanic Canada this past month,

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shows that we are not only losing these

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fish, but we don't know much about most

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of the stocks here in Canada.

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And so we are going to be talking to Jack

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Daly on today's episode of the How to

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Protect the Ocean podcast,

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so that we can find out more about what

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this report revealed, as well as what we

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can do in the future.

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This is the How to Protect the Ocean

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podcast, where you get

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your weekly ocean news update,

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if you are interested in learning more

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about ocean conservation, and you don't

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want to miss any of

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these episodes going forward,

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hit that follow button on your favorite

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podcast app, and you will get it each and

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every weekday, Monday to Friday.

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We have an episode for you on the ocean.

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Okay, let's talk about

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what's going to happen today.

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We are going to be going over a report,

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not word for word, but

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this is a different report.

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This is not just a white paper that

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people just released that organizations

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release, and it's

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almost like a boring report.

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This is a storytelling report, which as

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someone who is an ocean communications

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manager for an organization,

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this is a huge, huge step in the right

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direction in terms of how we get

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information out to the public,

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so that they find it

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very, very important.

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This report is essentially a series of

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stories that are given by or told by a

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number of different people.

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We have, you know, fifth generation

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fishers. We have indigenous people who

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are in charge of field technicians and

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research out in British Columbia.

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We have people who are naturalists and

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research director in Nova Scotia.

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There are just, we have a marine

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scientist who we talked to today, Jack

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Daly, who's in it as

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well, talking about mackerel.

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And it's just a number of different

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things that go on and looking at how

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Canada and other countries, of course,

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but Canada, this is

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particularly about Canada,

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how Canada is going to help maintain

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these forage fish,

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maintain these fisheries.

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And look, this entire week, we've been

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discussing forage fish

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and their importance.

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And there's a reason why we do this each

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and every week when we have a topic and

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we have an interview.

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I do the interview, say with somebody

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like Jack Daly, who's a

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marine scientist at Oceana Canada.

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We talk about a lot of stuff and I don't

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want you to hear it for the first time.

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So the four episodes previous is we

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prepare you. I prepare you.

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I give a, you know, 10 to eight to 10

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minute solo episode on that particular

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topic so that you are

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prepared to listen to this.

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So, you know, this is going to be an

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episode that you're not

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going to want to miss.

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If you want to know more about the glue

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that keeps food webs together, forage

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fish, this is the episode for you.

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So here is Jack Daly, marine scientist at

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Oceana Canada, talking about the new

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report that was released by Oceana Canada

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called Little Being Big Foundation,

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where rebuilding oceans abundant, where

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we, where rebuilding

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ocean abundance begins.

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Enjoy the interview with

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Jack and I'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Jack.

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Welcome to the How to

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Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about the state of

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Canada's forage fish

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right now and here and now?

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Yes, absolutely.

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Awesome. I'm looking forward to this.

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This is obviously a big report, but we're

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talking about little fish and we're going

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to talk about the importance of these

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little fish, not only to

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people, but also to the ecosystem.

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And I think there is this new report

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that's been put out, Little Being Big

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Foundation by Oceana Canada, where it

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says where rebuilding

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ocean abundance begins.

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It's a very interesting report. There's a

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lot of stark information, a little

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alarming at times. And so I'm here to ask

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you questions about that.

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We're going to find out all about the

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report, but I almost I get a link to the

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report in our show notes that

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people can get access to it.

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All the audience members can get access

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to it. But before we get into all that,

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Jack, you know, really

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appreciate you being here.

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It's your first time on the podcast. Why

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don't you just let us know

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who you are and what you do?

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Yes. So I'm Jack Daly. I'm a marine

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scientist with Oceana Canada. I'm based

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in our Halifax office on the east coast

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of Canada and Nova Scotia.

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And I've been with the organization for

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about four years. But before this, I was

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working with First Nations in eastern

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Canada on fish and fish habitat work.

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And I originally came to Canada because I

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got my degree in geography at Memorial

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University in Newfoundland. So I'm from

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the US originally, but I've been in

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Canada for almost 10 years now.

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OK, right on. So going back to just sort

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of the beginning, what got you interested

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in not only studying the ocean, but

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getting into fisheries?

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Well, I'm from Rhode Island in the US.

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So, you know, coastal state, not that far

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away from from Atlantic Canada.

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And I did my undergraduate there at the

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University of Rhode Island. But yeah,

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there was just a great opportunity for

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higher education in Canada and the

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benefit of that as well as that it was

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free, which is very un-American.

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So, yeah, I loved coming up here and then

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I really just kind of loved it. I love

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it. I love Atlanta, Canada. I get to

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travel across the country a lot, but I am

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based here and a lot of my work is based

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here, not to get to

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the report right away.

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But we do have some of sadly the most

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depleted forage fish stocks in the

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country on this coast. So a lot of my

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work here is very place based and very

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motivated by the region that I live in.

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Well, that's great. I mean, I'm not great

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that we're like have the most some of the

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most depleted forage fish stocks, but the

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fact that you're you're interested in

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where you live, obviously a new place,

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you know, being in working in

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Newfoundland and studying in Newfoundland

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and then coming down to Halifax.

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You know, obviously very different

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cultures, not only from moving from the

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U.S. up to Canada, but just even within

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the provinces and sort of the areas as

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you've come to know, I'm sure in terms of

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like how everybody reacts.

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But everybody loves when you're in

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Atlanta, Canada, people love Atlanta,

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Canada. What's your just to kind of go

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off and just because you're kind of new

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to Atlanta, Canada. What's your favorite

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thing about, you know, living Halifax or

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even living in Newfoundland?

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Yeah, I mean, I think one thing that

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people sometimes forget on this part of

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the country is, you know, still how kind

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of unpopulated we are, like living in

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Halifax, it does seem like a big city,

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but coming from the U.S.

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There is just so much open space. There's

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so many beaches to go to. There's so much

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wilderness to still enjoy. So it's a real

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benefit to live in this part of the

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country because there is just so much

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space. There's so much natural beauty.

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And that's why my favorite part about

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living both in Newfoundland when I lived

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there and then now in Nova Scotia. I love

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it. That's awesome. I completely agree

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with you. I'm actually headed out to

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Halifax in June. And so that'll be great.

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I'm looking forward to being there. I

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used to I did. I went to a university for

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my masters. So I was feeling I lived

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there for a couple of years as well. A

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long time ago, but it was still it was

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still fun. Okay, let's get let's dive

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into this report. You mentioned it

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earlier. You know, we're looking at

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forage fish. Can you just

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define for the audience what for?

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Yeah, so forage fish is really that thing

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in the ocean that everything else eats.

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So they're the smaller fish such as

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mackerel herring, cape Lynn and sardines.

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You know, depending on what country

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you're in, people have many different

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classifications for forage fish. They can

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also include Yulecon on the west coast of

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this country and they can include

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silversides and smelt on the east coast.

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But the defining characteristic is that they can have a lot of different types of fish.

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And the other characteristic is that you

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know, they eat all the things in the

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water that we can't see. So phytoplankton

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zooplankton. And in turn, and they turned

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that into energy for everything else to

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eat. So whales eat them seabirds eat them

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ground fish eat them. And so they are

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just this this really pivotal part of the

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ocean ecosystem that connects the kind of

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bigger animals that we see and that we

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love to the things that

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we can't see in this water.

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Gotcha. Now the report calls forage fish

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like the foundation of ocean abundance.

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What does that actually

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mean in practical terms?

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Well, what that means in practical terms

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is kind of the state of the east coast

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fisheries that we have now, you know,

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we're largely dependent on lobsters and

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snow crabs, what we would call

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invertebrates. Things that are highly

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valuable, you know, really delicious

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people love to eat them.

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But you know, you could also kind of

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describe them as bugs, things that just

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kind of crawl along the bottom of the

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ocean, eat a lot of the garbage. And by

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garbage, I mean, you know, waste of dead

270
00:08:57,750 --> 00:09:00,166
animals. And part of the reason why we

271
00:09:00,166 --> 00:09:02,208
have so many of these lobsters and so

272
00:09:02,208 --> 00:09:03,625
crap right now, which is a wonderful

273
00:09:03,625 --> 00:09:05,916
thing for our fisheries is because we

274
00:09:05,916 --> 00:09:08,041
kind of, you know, depleted all the fish

275
00:09:08,041 --> 00:09:09,166
that were in the water column.

276
00:09:09,958 --> 00:09:12,208
So around 30 years ago, you know, we had

277
00:09:12,208 --> 00:09:14,958
the famous cod collapse. What often isn't

278
00:09:14,958 --> 00:09:17,083
talked about in that cod collapse is how

279
00:09:17,083 --> 00:09:19,166
we also had a collapse of all other

280
00:09:19,166 --> 00:09:21,166
roundfish, all other pelagic

281
00:09:21,166 --> 00:09:23,583
fish, all other forage fish.

282
00:09:23,583 --> 00:09:26,375
And so, you know, one way to have an

283
00:09:26,375 --> 00:09:28,625
actually abundant ecosystem to actually

284
00:09:28,625 --> 00:09:30,333
have, you know, vibrant commercial

285
00:09:30,333 --> 00:09:32,708
fisheries that get to fish a lot of

286
00:09:32,708 --> 00:09:34,041
different fish rather than just one or

287
00:09:34,041 --> 00:09:36,666
two is by having forage fish because they

288
00:09:36,666 --> 00:09:38,500
really, you know, again, eat all of those

289
00:09:38,500 --> 00:09:40,500
things that we can't see to provide a

290
00:09:40,500 --> 00:09:41,875
good food base for the rest

291
00:09:41,875 --> 00:09:42,875
of the things in the ocean.

292
00:09:43,750 --> 00:09:46,125
So that is probably the best description

293
00:09:46,125 --> 00:09:48,500
of them. I would say on the west coast,

294
00:09:48,500 --> 00:09:50,250
they are extremely important off the

295
00:09:50,250 --> 00:09:51,708
coast of British Columbia because they're

296
00:09:51,708 --> 00:09:54,375
also that vital connection to salmon.

297
00:09:54,958 --> 00:09:56,625
So all the different salmon species on

298
00:09:56,625 --> 00:09:58,625
the west coast rely heavily on forage

299
00:09:58,625 --> 00:10:00,375
fish. So no matter where you are in the

300
00:10:00,375 --> 00:10:02,583
country, they have a huge impact.

301
00:10:02,958 --> 00:10:04,750
There also are forage fish in the Great

302
00:10:04,750 --> 00:10:06,958
Lakes in the Arctic. This report doesn't

303
00:10:06,958 --> 00:10:08,458
talk about them, but it's just good to

304
00:10:08,458 --> 00:10:10,458
it's just a good reminder that they do

305
00:10:10,458 --> 00:10:12,916
take place all over this this huge

306
00:10:12,916 --> 00:10:14,416
country that we live in.

307
00:10:14,666 --> 00:10:16,458
Absolutely. And I want to remind people,

308
00:10:16,458 --> 00:10:17,833
too, and you can confirm this for me,

309
00:10:17,833 --> 00:10:20,083
like this report, although it has some

310
00:10:20,083 --> 00:10:21,583
some stark realities in

311
00:10:21,583 --> 00:10:22,583
terms of where forage fish are.

312
00:10:23,583 --> 00:10:25,666
This is not a report to say we need to

313
00:10:25,666 --> 00:10:27,916
stop eating fish. We need to stop using

314
00:10:27,916 --> 00:10:30,166
the fish at all. This is a report to say,

315
00:10:30,166 --> 00:10:32,250
hey, we need to get better management. We

316
00:10:32,250 --> 00:10:34,833
need to get better information so that we

317
00:10:34,833 --> 00:10:37,541
can sustainably fish forever. Right.

318
00:10:37,541 --> 00:10:39,458
I mean, that's really what Oceana is all

319
00:10:39,458 --> 00:10:41,666
about. Can you just confirm that for me

320
00:10:41,666 --> 00:10:43,583
or am I am I wrong on this? I don't think I am. Right.

321
00:10:43,625 --> 00:10:46,916
Yeah, no, you are right on this. And one

322
00:10:46,916 --> 00:10:49,333
reason why we will why we focus on forage

323
00:10:49,333 --> 00:10:51,458
fish is because, you know, they actually

324
00:10:51,458 --> 00:10:52,333
don't live that long.

325
00:10:52,583 --> 00:10:53,583
They're very short lived.

326
00:10:54,458 --> 00:10:56,416
And with forage fish, you can actually

327
00:10:56,416 --> 00:10:59,250
rebuild them very fast compared to, let's

328
00:10:59,250 --> 00:11:02,500
say, ground fish or invertebrates. So one

329
00:11:02,500 --> 00:11:04,791
reason why we focus on them. Well, number

330
00:11:04,791 --> 00:11:06,750
one is because of just the bounty they

331
00:11:06,750 --> 00:11:07,541
provide our ocean

332
00:11:07,541 --> 00:11:08,583
ecosystem, our coastal economies.

333
00:11:08,583 --> 00:11:11,166
But number two, they're also they're

334
00:11:11,166 --> 00:11:13,500
really the best bang for your buck in

335
00:11:13,500 --> 00:11:16,791
terms of how to rebuild our oceans. How

336
00:11:16,791 --> 00:11:19,125
do we feed everything that is hungry in

337
00:11:19,125 --> 00:11:20,666
our oceans? And then ultimately, that

338
00:11:20,666 --> 00:11:23,291
leads up to how do we have more abundant

339
00:11:23,291 --> 00:11:26,416
commercial fisheries that aren't, you

340
00:11:26,416 --> 00:11:29,208
know, stuck in a crisis in annual crisis

341
00:11:29,208 --> 00:11:30,875
management that we often find ourselves,

342
00:11:31,083 --> 00:11:33,000
particularly here in Atlantic Canada, but

343
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,166
more so a long term portfolio of healthy

344
00:11:36,166 --> 00:11:38,583
fisheries to take from. So our focus is on how to rebuild our oceans.

345
00:11:38,583 --> 00:11:39,625
And so our focus on this is really, you

346
00:11:39,625 --> 00:11:40,958
know, you're getting the best bang for

347
00:11:40,958 --> 00:11:42,916
your buck if you rebuild these fish.

348
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,750
Okay, awesome. Good, good to know. Now,

349
00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:47,541
let's talk about the numbers here. Let's

350
00:11:47,541 --> 00:11:49,916
let's go over them briefly. What is this?

351
00:11:49,916 --> 00:11:51,958
What did this report overall find? Like,

352
00:11:51,958 --> 00:11:53,041
I know we talked a little bit about how

353
00:11:53,041 --> 00:11:54,875
there's a decrease in forage fish, but

354
00:11:54,875 --> 00:11:56,541
like, how much are we talking about what

355
00:11:56,541 --> 00:11:58,083
state are they in at this point,

356
00:11:58,083 --> 00:11:59,000
according to Oceana?

357
00:12:00,083 --> 00:12:02,166
Well, I might just take a step back

358
00:12:02,166 --> 00:12:04,208
because I know you've had my colleague on

359
00:12:04,208 --> 00:12:07,291
before Rebecca Skynes and she leads what

360
00:12:07,291 --> 00:12:10,125
is one of our real mammoth projects every

361
00:12:10,125 --> 00:12:12,958
year, which is our fishery audit. And our

362
00:12:12,958 --> 00:12:15,333
fishery audit looks at, you know, 200

363
00:12:15,333 --> 00:12:16,625
fish stocks in Canada.

364
00:12:17,666 --> 00:12:20,791
Now, year after year, our audit, you

365
00:12:20,791 --> 00:12:22,083
know, it finds a lot of good things that

366
00:12:22,083 --> 00:12:24,083
the government is doing. But when it

367
00:12:24,083 --> 00:12:26,375
comes to the biological reality, it finds

368
00:12:26,375 --> 00:12:28,416
that only about a third of our fish

369
00:12:28,416 --> 00:12:30,083
stocks in this country are healthy.

370
00:12:31,041 --> 00:12:32,500
And so, you know, we've been working on

371
00:12:32,500 --> 00:12:35,291
that report for for nine years now. And

372
00:12:35,291 --> 00:12:37,208
we're and we kind of came to the place

373
00:12:37,208 --> 00:12:39,500
where, you know, that is an extremely

374
00:12:39,500 --> 00:12:42,708
valuable piece of data. But now we're

375
00:12:42,708 --> 00:12:44,750
also looking for a solution. How can we

376
00:12:44,750 --> 00:12:46,958
actually get that number of a third of

377
00:12:46,958 --> 00:12:50,166
fish stocks up higher, maybe even 40% of

378
00:12:50,166 --> 00:12:52,416
fish stocks are high, you know, in the

379
00:12:52,416 --> 00:12:55,000
healthy zone, that shouldn't be a really

380
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,583
drastic thing to call for.

381
00:12:56,583 --> 00:13:00,000
So we took a step back and we looked at

382
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,041
the numbers and we said, well, out of

383
00:13:02,041 --> 00:13:03,958
these fish stocks, which are the ones

384
00:13:03,958 --> 00:13:05,791
that have the most important ecological

385
00:13:05,791 --> 00:13:08,291
function? And that's where

386
00:13:08,291 --> 00:13:09,666
we focus in on forage fish.

387
00:13:10,833 --> 00:13:13,166
Unfortunately, forage fish is kind of a

388
00:13:13,166 --> 00:13:16,000
subset of our fishery audit are actually

389
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,375
much unhealthier than the fishery audit

390
00:13:19,375 --> 00:13:21,083
shows. So the fishery audit shows, you

391
00:13:21,083 --> 00:13:22,583
know, that a third of stocks are healthy.

392
00:13:22,625 --> 00:13:25,791
While our fortress report only shows that

393
00:13:25,791 --> 00:13:29,250
three stocks are healthy. So that brings

394
00:13:29,250 --> 00:13:31,375
us to our fortress report where, you

395
00:13:31,375 --> 00:13:34,833
know, we're showing 16 forage fish stocks

396
00:13:34,833 --> 00:13:38,166
across the country. So we focus primarily

397
00:13:38,166 --> 00:13:40,958
on small finfish, Pacific herring,

398
00:13:40,958 --> 00:13:42,083
sardines. So those are

399
00:13:42,083 --> 00:13:42,583
both on the west coast.

400
00:13:42,833 --> 00:13:46,000
And then on the east coast, we have tons

401
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,125
of Atlantic herring stocks, we have

402
00:13:48,125 --> 00:13:50,125
Atlantic mackerel and we have a couple of

403
00:13:50,125 --> 00:13:53,500
capelin stocks. And so our our push here

404
00:13:53,500 --> 00:13:55,833
is really as a way both to, you know,

405
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:57,833
have more forage fish, but also to have a

406
00:13:57,833 --> 00:13:58,583
much healthier ocean ecosystem.

407
00:13:58,583 --> 00:14:03,416
That's amazing. It's it's awesome. I

408
00:14:03,416 --> 00:14:04,958
mean, amazing to know that, like, you

409
00:14:04,958 --> 00:14:06,458
know, we want to have this this this

410
00:14:06,458 --> 00:14:08,125
better ecosystem, we want to have a much

411
00:14:08,125 --> 00:14:10,375
healthier ecosystem. Scary to know that

412
00:14:10,375 --> 00:14:11,916
there's only one stock that's actually

413
00:14:11,916 --> 00:14:13,833
doing well out of the

414
00:14:13,833 --> 00:14:14,583
16 that that you studied.

415
00:14:14,583 --> 00:14:19,958
I know I'm talking to Rebecca over the

416
00:14:19,958 --> 00:14:21,625
last couple of years, we've had her on

417
00:14:21,625 --> 00:14:23,416
the podcast a number of times. And, you

418
00:14:23,416 --> 00:14:25,041
know, she talks a lot about how there's

419
00:14:25,041 --> 00:14:27,916
not a lot of information available for

420
00:14:27,916 --> 00:14:30,416
most of the stocks that they that they

421
00:14:30,416 --> 00:14:32,875
want to that you guys want to analyze.

422
00:14:33,416 --> 00:14:34,583
Was that the case for forage fish? Or did you have enough information for most of the stocks?

423
00:14:34,625 --> 00:14:40,166
Yeah, well, you know, with forage fish,

424
00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:42,291
like fisheries in general in Canada,

425
00:14:42,666 --> 00:14:44,791
there are a lot of them that fall into

426
00:14:44,791 --> 00:14:46,958
this uncertain category where we don't

427
00:14:46,958 --> 00:14:48,791
have a good understanding of the stock

428
00:14:48,791 --> 00:14:50,458
health with forage

429
00:14:50,458 --> 00:14:52,791
fish, the one benefit of it.

430
00:14:52,958 --> 00:14:55,250
So when we actually started drafting this

431
00:14:55,250 --> 00:14:58,291
report last year, six out of 10 of them

432
00:14:58,291 --> 00:15:00,541
had no stock status yet were heavily,

433
00:15:00,541 --> 00:15:02,875
heavily fished by the time that this

434
00:15:02,875 --> 00:15:03,583
report started to, you know, start to, you know, go through the process of the stock.

435
00:15:03,583 --> 00:15:04,833
And so, you know, started to, you know,

436
00:15:05,083 --> 00:15:07,125
really be finalized, we actually saw

437
00:15:07,125 --> 00:15:09,833
three of those stocks get a health

438
00:15:09,833 --> 00:15:11,875
status, which is a really wonderful,

439
00:15:12,208 --> 00:15:14,250
exciting thing. So right now, three,

440
00:15:15,208 --> 00:15:16,708
another three stocks

441
00:15:16,708 --> 00:15:17,791
have no health status.

442
00:15:18,375 --> 00:15:20,000
The three that formerly had no health

443
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:21,500
status are now in the cautious zone,

444
00:15:21,750 --> 00:15:22,916
which is by no mean a win,

445
00:15:22,916 --> 00:15:23,625
because they're cautious.

446
00:15:24,583 --> 00:15:26,916
And so it looks a little bit different

447
00:15:26,916 --> 00:15:29,250
now, thankfully, that we have a bit more

448
00:15:29,250 --> 00:15:31,666
information on these stocks. But, you

449
00:15:31,666 --> 00:15:34,000
know, even before we had that

450
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:35,791
information, some of the people that we

451
00:15:35,791 --> 00:15:37,791
profile in this report, you know, they

452
00:15:37,791 --> 00:15:39,583
knew that these things weren't healthy.

453
00:15:39,583 --> 00:15:42,666
This, this was no shock to assign a

454
00:15:42,666 --> 00:15:44,375
cautious health status to these stocks.

455
00:15:44,666 --> 00:15:46,875
So even though we still have a couple

456
00:15:46,875 --> 00:15:48,791
that are unhealthy, we know that by and

457
00:15:48,791 --> 00:15:50,666
large across the country, they're not

458
00:15:50,666 --> 00:15:52,916
doing well. And there's really no long

459
00:15:52,916 --> 00:15:55,375
term management plan. Instead, it's kind

460
00:15:55,375 --> 00:15:57,583
of just the annual crisis management that

461
00:15:57,583 --> 00:15:58,583
we find ourselves in.

462
00:15:58,625 --> 00:16:01,333
Gotcha. Now, one thing that's in this

463
00:16:01,333 --> 00:16:02,875
report, which I thought was really

464
00:16:02,875 --> 00:16:04,958
interesting is it's really story based

465
00:16:04,958 --> 00:16:09,000
and story based based on fishers on

466
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,083
conservationists and where you're hearing

467
00:16:11,083 --> 00:16:13,000
from a lot of different people.

468
00:16:13,875 --> 00:16:15,791
Why did you guys decide to present it

469
00:16:15,791 --> 00:16:18,083
this way? And why was that important to

470
00:16:18,083 --> 00:16:18,875
present it this way?

471
00:16:20,250 --> 00:16:23,125
Yeah, well, you know, personally, I find

472
00:16:23,125 --> 00:16:25,625
talking to like the higher ups in

473
00:16:25,625 --> 00:16:27,666
government, the bureaucracy, extremely

474
00:16:27,666 --> 00:16:30,291
frustrating. You can show them all the

475
00:16:30,291 --> 00:16:31,958
data in the world, you can show them

476
00:16:31,958 --> 00:16:33,958
findings that cannot be debated.

477
00:16:34,583 --> 00:16:36,333
And they will always find a reason for

478
00:16:36,333 --> 00:16:38,500
why things are staying the same. One

479
00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:40,458
thing that we wanted to do with this

480
00:16:40,458 --> 00:16:42,458
report is make it more publicly

481
00:16:42,458 --> 00:16:45,375
accessible. Have people tell stories that

482
00:16:45,375 --> 00:16:47,083
the average person in the

483
00:16:47,083 --> 00:16:47,916
public could understand.

484
00:16:48,583 --> 00:16:50,041
And also the average member of parliament

485
00:16:50,041 --> 00:16:52,375
could understand, you know, fisheries in

486
00:16:52,375 --> 00:16:55,500
Canada are governed federally. And so we

487
00:16:55,500 --> 00:16:57,791
really wanted to have a nice subset of

488
00:16:57,791 --> 00:17:00,166
people from across this country that rely

489
00:17:00,166 --> 00:17:02,791
heavily on these fish, because, you know,

490
00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:05,458
at some point, I was getting sick

491
00:17:05,583 --> 00:17:07,333
of telling the department that there are

492
00:17:07,333 --> 00:17:10,000
basically no forage fish, healthy forage

493
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:11,625
fish in this country and that kind of

494
00:17:11,625 --> 00:17:13,500
landing on deaf ears. We're trying to

495
00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:15,708
mobilize, you know, the wider public

496
00:17:15,708 --> 00:17:18,458
because, you know, fishing Canada, what

497
00:17:18,458 --> 00:17:20,083
one benefit of fishing Canada is that

498
00:17:20,083 --> 00:17:21,416
they're actually owned by all of us.

499
00:17:21,750 --> 00:17:23,500
They're governed for all of us. They're

500
00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:25,583
not governed for any one industry. And so

501
00:17:25,583 --> 00:17:27,666
that's why we took the storytelling

502
00:17:27,666 --> 00:17:30,708
approach. One other reason I would say we

503
00:17:30,708 --> 00:17:32,500
did that as well because the people that

504
00:17:32,500 --> 00:17:34,250
we profile in this report that I get to

505
00:17:34,250 --> 00:17:34,583
talk to all the time,

506
00:17:34,625 --> 00:17:37,333
are just really great to talk to. And so

507
00:17:37,333 --> 00:17:38,791
when I get to introduce them to my

508
00:17:38,791 --> 00:17:41,375
colleagues, they're like, Whoa, this,

509
00:17:41,375 --> 00:17:43,541
there's something here that, you know, we

510
00:17:43,541 --> 00:17:45,041
should be sharing these voices. So part

511
00:17:45,041 --> 00:17:46,750
of it was was that as well. It's just the

512
00:17:46,750 --> 00:17:48,666
recognition that we get to work with so

513
00:17:48,666 --> 00:17:50,333
many great people. So why not use their

514
00:17:50,333 --> 00:17:52,458
voices, rather than just

515
00:17:52,458 --> 00:17:53,583
our own or just the data.

516
00:17:54,583 --> 00:17:57,541
I completely agree. I mean, story is the

517
00:17:57,541 --> 00:17:59,958
way to really get people interested in,

518
00:17:59,958 --> 00:18:02,208
in, you know, understanding what's

519
00:18:02,208 --> 00:18:04,083
happening, seeing it from a lot of

520
00:18:04,083 --> 00:18:06,041
different perspectives from fishers, from

521
00:18:06,041 --> 00:18:08,208
scientists, from naturalists, you know,

522
00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:10,875
ecotourism and so forth really helps give

523
00:18:10,875 --> 00:18:12,958
a big, a big picture.

524
00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:14,416
Now, one of the things you mentioned

525
00:18:14,416 --> 00:18:16,666
earlier, and I don't want to dwell on it

526
00:18:16,666 --> 00:18:18,083
too much, but you said, you know, dealing

527
00:18:18,083 --> 00:18:20,041
with DFO Department of Fisheries and

528
00:18:20,041 --> 00:18:20,833
Oceans here in Canada

529
00:18:20,833 --> 00:18:22,166
can be extremely difficult.

530
00:18:22,833 --> 00:18:26,291
Now I know, you know, I graduated from

531
00:18:26,291 --> 00:18:27,500
University of Guelph. We had a lot of

532
00:18:27,500 --> 00:18:29,458
people go to the Bedford Institute, great

533
00:18:29,458 --> 00:18:32,708
institution there for DFO. And I remember

534
00:18:32,708 --> 00:18:34,916
doing my master's when I went to Acadia

535
00:18:34,916 --> 00:18:37,500
on fish stock assessment, it was actually

536
00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:39,750
invertebrate stock, but we were able to

537
00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:41,541
talk to, you know, fishery stock

538
00:18:41,541 --> 00:18:43,625
assessment people. Now this is back in

539
00:18:43,625 --> 00:18:44,583
the early 2000s, right?

540
00:18:44,625 --> 00:18:46,833
Before the cuts from Harper and all that

541
00:18:46,833 --> 00:18:48,250
kind of stuff. But there was a lot of

542
00:18:48,250 --> 00:18:50,125
data, like they had data moving back for

543
00:18:50,125 --> 00:18:51,958
fish, they had moving back all the way to

544
00:18:51,958 --> 00:18:53,666
the 70s, you know, you can actually see

545
00:18:53,666 --> 00:18:56,333
the decline of of cod and so forth.

546
00:18:57,250 --> 00:18:59,125
Can you talk to, you know, your

547
00:18:59,125 --> 00:19:01,625
experience and accessing data and your

548
00:19:01,625 --> 00:19:04,625
team's experience and accessing data from

549
00:19:04,625 --> 00:19:07,416
DFO? Because I'll be honest, I've heard

550
00:19:07,416 --> 00:19:10,333
sometimes it's more difficult than you

551
00:19:10,333 --> 00:19:12,500
think. Now we had an in, my advisor

552
00:19:12,500 --> 00:19:13,583
taught most of the people who, you know,

553
00:19:13,583 --> 00:19:15,958
who did those stock assessments at the

554
00:19:15,958 --> 00:19:19,000
time. But like, is it difficult to access

555
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,750
the data? Or are they just not studying

556
00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:24,166
certain fish at all? Because not in their

557
00:19:24,166 --> 00:19:25,125
it's in their mandate,

558
00:19:25,125 --> 00:19:26,583
but not in their resources.

559
00:19:26,625 --> 00:19:31,291
Yeah, one one benefit of my job is I get

560
00:19:31,291 --> 00:19:33,250
to attend all of the stock assessments

561
00:19:33,250 --> 00:19:36,166
for forage fish. And so as someone who

562
00:19:36,166 --> 00:19:37,958
attends a stock assessment, you know, I

563
00:19:37,958 --> 00:19:40,291
have to kind of take off my Oceana Canada

564
00:19:40,291 --> 00:19:41,583
hat. And I just attend as a scientist.

565
00:19:41,583 --> 00:19:45,875
But that's an example where, you know, I

566
00:19:45,875 --> 00:19:48,208
get to see how much data we're working

567
00:19:48,208 --> 00:19:51,000
with, how many environmental variables

568
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:52,666
we're balancing, how many government

569
00:19:52,666 --> 00:19:55,333
scientists are in the room to assess, you

570
00:19:55,333 --> 00:19:56,958
know, the health of a stock that has

571
00:19:56,958 --> 00:19:59,958
almost extremely minimal economic

572
00:19:59,958 --> 00:20:02,416
benefit. And I find what is so

573
00:20:02,416 --> 00:20:04,208
frustrating about attending those

574
00:20:04,208 --> 00:20:07,541
assessments, particularly in Nova Scotia

575
00:20:07,541 --> 00:20:09,000
and the Newfoundland and Labrador in

576
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:10,375
particular compared to the rest of the

577
00:20:10,375 --> 00:20:11,583
country, is that they're not just a

578
00:20:11,583 --> 00:20:12,000
lot of people. And so we're getting a lot

579
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:12,916
of data that we have all of this data.

580
00:20:13,166 --> 00:20:14,833
We're spending all of this money, this

581
00:20:14,833 --> 00:20:17,083
public money. And we can't even at the

582
00:20:17,083 --> 00:20:18,958
end of these assessments say how many

583
00:20:18,958 --> 00:20:21,416
fish should come out of the water. We're

584
00:20:21,416 --> 00:20:23,500
getting dozens of we're getting documents

585
00:20:23,500 --> 00:20:25,458
that are dozens of pages long that

586
00:20:25,458 --> 00:20:28,166
basically say, you know, all these

587
00:20:28,166 --> 00:20:30,083
threats are present, all of these things

588
00:20:30,083 --> 00:20:32,708
are uncertain. And that's the end of it.

589
00:20:32,708 --> 00:20:34,125
When we have stock, when we have

590
00:20:34,125 --> 00:20:35,875
scientists, you know, that will sit in on

591
00:20:35,875 --> 00:20:38,500
these assessments from DFO Quebec, or DFO

592
00:20:38,500 --> 00:20:39,583
Gulf region, or even

593
00:20:39,583 --> 00:20:40,541
DFO British Columbia.

594
00:20:40,625 --> 00:20:42,875
They'll often at the end of assessment

595
00:20:42,875 --> 00:20:46,916
say, wait, are we not providing any

596
00:20:46,916 --> 00:20:48,916
science advice here in terms of how many

597
00:20:48,916 --> 00:20:50,166
fish should be taken out of the water?

598
00:20:50,166 --> 00:20:53,958
And the answer is often no, because, and

599
00:20:53,958 --> 00:20:56,666
this is just my perspective, I almost

600
00:20:56,666 --> 00:20:58,666
think is because they know that these

601
00:20:58,666 --> 00:21:00,958
decisions are so political, the

602
00:21:00,958 --> 00:21:02,416
scientists, you know, they're scientists,

603
00:21:02,416 --> 00:21:03,875
they're not politicians, they don't want

604
00:21:03,875 --> 00:21:05,583
to be in the middle of that maelstrom.

605
00:21:06,041 --> 00:21:08,000
And so they often just create science

606
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,291
reports that show the general trends of

607
00:21:10,291 --> 00:21:13,166
our stocks, but really leave it up to the

608
00:21:13,166 --> 00:21:16,000
minister to the fishing industry into

609
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,291
environmental NGOs to have to essentially

610
00:21:18,291 --> 00:21:20,583
all paint our own picture of what we see.

611
00:21:20,625 --> 00:21:23,125
So it's really unfortunate, particularly

612
00:21:23,125 --> 00:21:24,958
with forage fish, you know, these fish,

613
00:21:26,041 --> 00:21:28,250
they're hard to assess, you know, they

614
00:21:28,250 --> 00:21:30,041
don't live that long, they're schooling

615
00:21:30,041 --> 00:21:32,416
fish. So, you know, if you see a school

616
00:21:32,416 --> 00:21:33,666
of forage fish, it doesn't mean that

617
00:21:33,666 --> 00:21:35,125
there's a ton of fortress in the water,

618
00:21:35,125 --> 00:21:36,166
it means that there's one school.

619
00:21:36,583 --> 00:21:39,208
Right. So that is one of the most frustrating

620
00:21:39,208 --> 00:21:41,041
things I think as someone who attends

621
00:21:41,041 --> 00:21:42,458
these stock assessments and then

622
00:21:42,458 --> 00:21:44,083
subsequently attend the advisory

623
00:21:44,083 --> 00:21:45,708
committees, which is where everybody's,

624
00:21:45,708 --> 00:21:47,625
you know, kind of teeth come out, because

625
00:21:47,625 --> 00:21:49,708
we're all just kind of working with data

626
00:21:49,708 --> 00:21:51,416
that isn't explicit in terms

627
00:21:51,416 --> 00:21:52,625
of what we should be doing.

628
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,500
Yeah, it's interesting to me, like,

629
00:21:56,500 --> 00:21:57,875
especially going back to seeing like the

630
00:21:57,875 --> 00:22:00,458
other DFO offices coming in and being

631
00:22:00,458 --> 00:22:01,833
like, wait, are we not providing any

632
00:22:01,833 --> 00:22:05,666
advice? Does that mean other offices so

633
00:22:05,666 --> 00:22:09,541
like DFO, you know, West and Quebec and

634
00:22:09,541 --> 00:22:10,875
Central and Arctic, are

635
00:22:10,875 --> 00:22:12,000
they providing advice?

636
00:22:13,125 --> 00:22:15,541
Like even on forage fish. Yeah. So what

637
00:22:15,541 --> 00:22:17,750
one great example of a stock that has a

638
00:22:17,750 --> 00:22:20,250
really robust assessment is done out of

639
00:22:20,250 --> 00:22:22,708
DFO, Quebec, and that is on Atlantic

640
00:22:22,708 --> 00:22:25,291
mackerel. So it's a it's a hugely

641
00:22:25,291 --> 00:22:27,583
controversial forage fish stock.

642
00:22:27,583 --> 00:22:29,500
It's one when I was in Ottawa the past

643
00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:31,750
couple of weeks, MPs from every single

644
00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:34,375
party asked me about mackerel because

645
00:22:34,375 --> 00:22:37,666
there is such there is a very complicated

646
00:22:37,666 --> 00:22:39,791
stock. Essentially, you know, in Eastern

647
00:22:39,791 --> 00:22:41,791
Canada, we have what, you know, six,

648
00:22:41,958 --> 00:22:43,875
seven herring stocks, we have one

649
00:22:43,875 --> 00:22:46,791
mackerel stock that stock covers all of

650
00:22:46,791 --> 00:22:48,583
Atlantic Canada and Eastern Quebec.

651
00:22:48,625 --> 00:22:51,833
So it moves all around. It's all over the

652
00:22:51,833 --> 00:22:54,208
place. It's hard to get a handle on. But

653
00:22:54,208 --> 00:22:57,000
it's also extremely important for lobster

654
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,000
for snow crab as a source of bait. So

655
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,333
that's a stock that's assessed out of out

656
00:23:02,333 --> 00:23:04,750
of DFO Quebec, really great science, you

657
00:23:04,750 --> 00:23:06,791
know, they're able to pinpoint that we

658
00:23:06,791 --> 00:23:09,500
can only take 500 tons of fish out of the

659
00:23:09,500 --> 00:23:12,333
water every year to ensure that it grows

660
00:23:12,333 --> 00:23:14,583
at a 75% chance over two years.

661
00:23:14,583 --> 00:23:17,916
So very, very scientific versus other

662
00:23:17,916 --> 00:23:19,916
stocks where we have absolutely no

663
00:23:19,916 --> 00:23:22,291
guidance. There's there's one stock I

664
00:23:22,291 --> 00:23:24,083
work on, Caplin in the Gulf of St.

665
00:23:24,208 --> 00:23:26,708
Lawrence, where in the past 20 years,

666
00:23:26,708 --> 00:23:27,916
it's been harvested between

667
00:23:27,916 --> 00:23:30,208
1000 tons and 11,000 tons.

668
00:23:30,791 --> 00:23:33,333
And the science advice says anything

669
00:23:33,333 --> 00:23:35,458
within that should be okay, which is

670
00:23:35,458 --> 00:23:38,000
really crazy. You know, thousands of tons

671
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:42,833
of fish are a lot of fish. So, yeah, so

672
00:23:42,833 --> 00:23:43,583
mackerel is a great example where we have a lot of fish.

673
00:23:43,583 --> 00:23:44,875
And that's a great example where we have

674
00:23:44,875 --> 00:23:47,750
really good advice. Other stocks, we

675
00:23:47,750 --> 00:23:49,500
don't have that benefit. And then

676
00:23:49,500 --> 00:23:51,500
therefore the minister has a lot more

677
00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:53,958
power a lot more discretion into making a

678
00:23:53,958 --> 00:23:56,125
decision, and then pulling out a data

679
00:23:56,125 --> 00:23:57,583
point here or there as to

680
00:23:57,583 --> 00:23:58,875
why it's a good decision.

681
00:24:01,583 --> 00:24:01,958
And I think that's interesting because

682
00:24:01,958 --> 00:24:04,125
that's not like what is represent always

683
00:24:04,125 --> 00:24:06,041
representative of what's happening in the

684
00:24:06,041 --> 00:24:07,708
ocean when you start taking a couple of

685
00:24:07,708 --> 00:24:09,791
data points and making a decision based

686
00:24:09,791 --> 00:24:10,208
off that big

687
00:24:10,208 --> 00:24:11,833
decisions like we're talking.

688
00:24:12,541 --> 00:24:14,541
We're setting quote quote us for like you

689
00:24:14,541 --> 00:24:16,958
said, anywhere between 1000 and 11,000

690
00:24:16,958 --> 00:24:19,166
tons of fish. That's that's a big

691
00:24:19,166 --> 00:24:20,791
difference. And like you said, even

692
00:24:20,791 --> 00:24:23,625
though they're, they're, they're short

693
00:24:23,625 --> 00:24:25,791
lived their life cycles are short lived.

694
00:24:27,625 --> 00:24:30,125
And that's that's making it really fast if you take too much, you know you're

695
00:24:30,125 --> 00:24:32,750
getting rid of like schools of fish, you

696
00:24:32,750 --> 00:24:34,208
know that that could get rid of certain

697
00:24:34,208 --> 00:24:36,583
populations, genetic populations and

698
00:24:36,583 --> 00:24:39,041
decreasing those and that could be, that

699
00:24:39,041 --> 00:24:40,500
could be detrimental to

700
00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:42,375
them going, going further.

701
00:24:44,250 --> 00:24:45,000
Sorry, yeah, you have some.

702
00:24:45,541 --> 00:24:49,000
Well, just on that, with Forgefish, we're

703
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:49,916
excited because they

704
00:24:49,916 --> 00:24:50,791
have a real potential

705
00:24:50,791 --> 00:24:51,458
to rebuild.

706
00:24:52,250 --> 00:24:55,250
But not every stock can rebuild after

707
00:24:55,250 --> 00:24:56,500
it's been severely depleted.

708
00:24:56,750 --> 00:24:58,958
We have one stock in the Southern Gulf of

709
00:24:58,958 --> 00:25:00,125
St. Lawrence, a herring stock.

710
00:25:00,583 --> 00:25:02,000
It has been so depleted.

711
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,583
I talked to government scientists and

712
00:25:03,583 --> 00:25:05,833
managers who say, "10 years

713
00:25:05,833 --> 00:25:06,666
ago, we should have stopped

714
00:25:06,666 --> 00:25:07,416
fishing the stock.

715
00:25:07,958 --> 00:25:09,041
Now it's under moratorium."

716
00:25:09,666 --> 00:25:12,000
There is no timeline for it to rebuild.

717
00:25:13,416 --> 00:25:15,375
There is no future in which

718
00:25:15,375 --> 00:25:17,458
we see these fish returning.

719
00:25:18,291 --> 00:25:21,416
And so it's not only a concern of, "Oh,

720
00:25:21,416 --> 00:25:22,916
Shannon says we should rebuild these fish

721
00:25:22,916 --> 00:25:24,000
now, so let's do it."

722
00:25:24,500 --> 00:25:25,458
We need to rebuild these

723
00:25:25,458 --> 00:25:27,041
fish before they cannot rebuild.

724
00:25:27,916 --> 00:25:29,375
I'm not saying that these stocks will

725
00:25:29,375 --> 00:25:33,000
become extirpated or go extinct.

726
00:25:33,541 --> 00:25:35,291
But when they're so depleted, when

727
00:25:35,291 --> 00:25:37,208
they're at such a small level, it's hard

728
00:25:37,208 --> 00:25:39,291
for them to get back to the abundance

729
00:25:39,291 --> 00:25:40,583
pools that we once saw.

730
00:25:40,625 --> 00:25:43,916
So I just like to just add that in

731
00:25:43,916 --> 00:25:45,791
because we're telling this great story.

732
00:25:45,791 --> 00:25:47,416
These fish can be rebuilt.

733
00:25:48,166 --> 00:25:50,666
But every species has its limit.

734
00:25:51,333 --> 00:25:52,208
And some forage fish,

735
00:25:52,208 --> 00:25:53,625
unfortunately, are at their limit.

736
00:25:53,875 --> 00:25:55,291
We don't want to see any more of them

737
00:25:55,291 --> 00:25:57,416
have to have to be in that position.

738
00:25:58,208 --> 00:26:01,333
Gotcha. Now, talking to fishers in this

739
00:26:01,333 --> 00:26:05,500
report, they fish for forage fish.

740
00:26:06,041 --> 00:26:07,291
And there are a lot of people who fish

741
00:26:07,291 --> 00:26:08,375
for forage fish, obviously.

742
00:26:09,083 --> 00:26:10,125
What are they using it for?

743
00:26:11,750 --> 00:26:14,625
Yeah, so when it comes to Atlantic

744
00:26:14,625 --> 00:26:16,833
mackerel, when it comes to some herring,

745
00:26:17,125 --> 00:26:18,208
they're using it for bait.

746
00:26:19,125 --> 00:26:21,458
So right now we're in this really

747
00:26:21,458 --> 00:26:23,875
horrible trade war with the United States

748
00:26:23,875 --> 00:26:28,708
where we can't get mackerel caught there.

749
00:26:28,708 --> 00:26:29,625
We can't get other

750
00:26:29,625 --> 00:26:30,791
forage fish caught there.

751
00:26:31,291 --> 00:26:33,125
When it comes to alternatives, the

752
00:26:33,125 --> 00:26:35,333
alternatives for forage fish in terms of

753
00:26:35,333 --> 00:26:37,583
to be using lobster pots aren't great.

754
00:26:38,541 --> 00:26:40,291
People have tried to use green crab,

755
00:26:40,500 --> 00:26:41,583
which is an invasive species.

756
00:26:41,875 --> 00:26:43,250
The fish just don't want it.

757
00:26:43,500 --> 00:26:44,708
They love a forage fish.

758
00:26:44,708 --> 00:26:46,083
Forage fish is so fatty,

759
00:26:46,083 --> 00:26:47,875
so oily, really wonderful.

760
00:26:48,833 --> 00:26:50,958
So mackerel is primarily used for bait.

761
00:26:51,875 --> 00:26:53,166
When it comes to capelin and

762
00:26:53,166 --> 00:26:55,000
herring, it's another story.

763
00:26:55,333 --> 00:26:57,208
It's a bit darker there when it comes to

764
00:26:57,208 --> 00:26:58,750
capelin and new fill in particular.

765
00:26:59,208 --> 00:26:59,958
You know, we're

766
00:26:59,958 --> 00:27:02,208
targeting row bearing females.

767
00:27:02,458 --> 00:27:03,000
So it's essentially

768
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,958
pregnant females carrying eggs.

769
00:27:05,583 --> 00:27:07,541
That's intended for the overseas market

770
00:27:07,541 --> 00:27:09,041
to essentially use their

771
00:27:09,041 --> 00:27:10,666
eggs as sushi decorations.

772
00:27:11,875 --> 00:27:14,208
They used to in the past, it was very

773
00:27:14,208 --> 00:27:15,916
well reported that the

774
00:27:15,916 --> 00:27:18,208
fishermen would dump male capelins.

775
00:27:18,458 --> 00:27:19,416
So let's say you're trying

776
00:27:19,416 --> 00:27:20,541
to catch a school of fish.

777
00:27:21,083 --> 00:27:22,500
Let's say you catch a school and 90

778
00:27:22,500 --> 00:27:24,625
percent are males, so they have no eggs.

779
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,000
They would just dump them.

780
00:27:26,416 --> 00:27:27,625
That is illegal now.

781
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,000
And so the solution to that is we're

782
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,041
going to sell them to zoos

783
00:27:31,041 --> 00:27:32,416
in America to feed penguins.

784
00:27:33,333 --> 00:27:34,041
It's very similar

785
00:27:34,041 --> 00:27:35,083
when it comes to herring.

786
00:27:35,333 --> 00:27:36,125
We're targeting their

787
00:27:36,125 --> 00:27:37,791
eggs to go overseas.

788
00:27:38,291 --> 00:27:39,666
And then when we're using the bodies,

789
00:27:39,958 --> 00:27:42,125
it's to go feed aquaculture in Europe or

790
00:27:42,125 --> 00:27:43,375
to feed aquaculture here.

791
00:27:44,333 --> 00:27:46,166
So when we think about these fish, if you

792
00:27:46,166 --> 00:27:47,791
go to anywhere else in the world, people

793
00:27:47,791 --> 00:27:49,500
really value these fish for

794
00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:51,000
the food that they can provide.

795
00:27:51,541 --> 00:27:53,833
In Newfoundland, people love capelin for

796
00:27:53,833 --> 00:27:55,250
the food that it provides them.

797
00:27:55,250 --> 00:27:56,208
Same with mackerel here

798
00:27:56,208 --> 00:27:57,250
and the Halifax waterfront.

799
00:27:57,541 --> 00:27:59,208
People actually fish it to eat.

800
00:27:59,875 --> 00:28:02,125
And so it's a very bizarre thing that not

801
00:28:02,125 --> 00:28:04,458
only are we overfishing these fish, but

802
00:28:04,458 --> 00:28:07,250
we're overfishing it to not even eat, to

803
00:28:07,250 --> 00:28:08,500
not even provide a source

804
00:28:08,500 --> 00:28:09,958
of protein for human beings.

805
00:28:10,583 --> 00:28:13,333
And so when you kind of zoom out, this

806
00:28:13,333 --> 00:28:14,750
problem kind of compounds.

807
00:28:15,166 --> 00:28:16,791
Like no matter which way you look at it,

808
00:28:16,791 --> 00:28:17,708
it kind of gets worse.

809
00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:20,458
And that's why we really, you know, we

810
00:28:20,458 --> 00:28:22,041
focus on the science, we focus on how

811
00:28:22,041 --> 00:28:22,750
much should be taken.

812
00:28:23,125 --> 00:28:25,125
But you can't ignore the end use either

813
00:28:25,125 --> 00:28:26,583
because it really can be

814
00:28:26,583 --> 00:28:28,000
frustrating when you get into it.

815
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:30,208
No doubt, no doubt.

816
00:28:31,500 --> 00:28:33,500
So as you know, as you're talking to

817
00:28:33,500 --> 00:28:34,916
fishers and they're fishing for this,

818
00:28:35,166 --> 00:28:36,666
they know it's an overfished stock, but

819
00:28:36,666 --> 00:28:37,750
they keep fishing for it.

820
00:28:38,041 --> 00:28:40,375
So, you know, obviously the onus is on

821
00:28:40,375 --> 00:28:41,541
the government to make sure that they're

822
00:28:41,541 --> 00:28:42,791
setting the right quotas.

823
00:28:43,166 --> 00:28:44,833
But for the fishers, like what is their

824
00:28:44,833 --> 00:28:46,583
position or stance on

825
00:28:46,583 --> 00:28:48,541
fishing these forage fish?

826
00:28:48,708 --> 00:28:50,166
Even though they know that they're being

827
00:28:50,166 --> 00:28:52,125
overfished, are they actually going out

828
00:28:52,125 --> 00:28:54,000
and fishing less on purpose to make sure

829
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,000
that the stock continues?

830
00:28:55,041 --> 00:28:59,000
Or are they worried that that DFO is not

831
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:00,041
assessing them properly?

832
00:29:00,041 --> 00:29:02,291
Like what is their their view on the

833
00:29:02,291 --> 00:29:03,625
overfishing of these fish?

834
00:29:04,791 --> 00:29:07,041
Well, you know, Mackerel, I'll just go

835
00:29:07,041 --> 00:29:08,083
back to that because it's a really

836
00:29:08,083 --> 00:29:10,083
interesting population where it's

837
00:29:10,083 --> 00:29:12,500
actually fished by the by Canadians, by

838
00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:13,750
us as well as Americans.

839
00:29:14,625 --> 00:29:17,333
And so, you know, our stock is under a

840
00:29:17,333 --> 00:29:18,250
commercial moratorium.

841
00:29:18,958 --> 00:29:20,500
We are still taking out 500

842
00:29:20,500 --> 00:29:22,875
tons of it to use as bait.

843
00:29:22,875 --> 00:29:24,041
So it's not insignificant.

844
00:29:24,625 --> 00:29:26,416
I sometimes think people forget how much

845
00:29:26,416 --> 00:29:29,041
a ton of fishes, how many school buses,

846
00:29:29,375 --> 00:29:31,541
you know, are 500 tons.

847
00:29:31,541 --> 00:29:33,250
It's quite a lot. Yeah.

848
00:29:34,500 --> 00:29:36,583
And, you know, so before when the

849
00:29:36,583 --> 00:29:39,541
Americans also weren't fishing it, the

850
00:29:39,541 --> 00:29:42,500
discussion was more so about how, well,

851
00:29:42,500 --> 00:29:43,083
we see a lot of

852
00:29:43,083 --> 00:29:44,291
mackerels, so we should fish it.

853
00:29:44,750 --> 00:29:46,500
Now that the Americans are fishing it,

854
00:29:47,375 --> 00:29:48,708
the story here is, well,

855
00:29:48,708 --> 00:29:50,166
they're fishing it, so why not us?

856
00:29:50,916 --> 00:29:53,333
So that's a really interesting example

857
00:29:53,333 --> 00:29:55,000
of, you know, kind of international

858
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:56,791
politics complicating the issue.

859
00:29:57,250 --> 00:29:59,791
I was actually speaking with some members

860
00:29:59,791 --> 00:30:01,583
of our federal bureaucracy a couple of

861
00:30:01,583 --> 00:30:03,541
weeks ago when I was in Ottawa and they

862
00:30:03,541 --> 00:30:05,166
basically put this to me.

863
00:30:05,416 --> 00:30:06,500
Why shouldn't we fish

864
00:30:06,500 --> 00:30:07,708
mackerel if they are?

865
00:30:08,541 --> 00:30:11,125
And, you know, it's really kind of a

866
00:30:11,125 --> 00:30:13,875
shocking question because I'm not sure in

867
00:30:13,875 --> 00:30:16,166
what case in Canada we're saying, well,

868
00:30:16,166 --> 00:30:16,833
if the Americans are

869
00:30:16,833 --> 00:30:18,000
doing it, then why aren't we?

870
00:30:18,500 --> 00:30:20,000
I think that we're a bit better than

871
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,000
that. We're a bit more proud than that.

872
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:22,958
We're saying when they do

873
00:30:22,958 --> 00:30:24,416
something wrong, we will not.

874
00:30:25,250 --> 00:30:26,708
We know we're saying that when they tear

875
00:30:26,708 --> 00:30:27,416
up the Paris

876
00:30:27,416 --> 00:30:29,041
agreement, we will double down.

877
00:30:29,875 --> 00:30:32,458
And so that's a great example of where

878
00:30:32,458 --> 00:30:35,916
the the the politics is impacting it.

879
00:30:36,875 --> 00:30:38,625
Now, I will say I do.

880
00:30:38,625 --> 00:30:40,000
You know, I've had the benefit of talking

881
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,625
to some mackerel fishers from Quebec who,

882
00:30:42,625 --> 00:30:44,666
again, rely greatly on mackerel.

883
00:30:44,666 --> 00:30:47,250
They fish it. But what they don't like to

884
00:30:47,250 --> 00:30:48,250
see is, you know, big

885
00:30:48,250 --> 00:30:49,708
purse sainers coming in.

886
00:30:49,708 --> 00:30:51,041
So huge nets coming into

887
00:30:51,041 --> 00:30:52,541
scoop up schools of mackerel.

888
00:30:53,208 --> 00:30:55,125
And so these, you know, I

889
00:30:55,125 --> 00:30:56,250
attend a lot of these meetings.

890
00:30:56,583 --> 00:30:57,916
It's always very complicated.

891
00:30:58,166 --> 00:31:00,000
You know, people fish these fish using

892
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,666
different years, different regions,

893
00:31:01,666 --> 00:31:02,750
different times of year.

894
00:31:03,416 --> 00:31:05,291
There's there's a lot to get into there

895
00:31:05,291 --> 00:31:07,958
instead of getting into all those little

896
00:31:07,958 --> 00:31:09,333
fights here and there.

897
00:31:09,666 --> 00:31:11,125
I'm just one person working on these

898
00:31:11,125 --> 00:31:12,625
fish, you know, on 16 stocks.

899
00:31:12,958 --> 00:31:15,125
And my main message is always we just

900
00:31:15,125 --> 00:31:16,041
need to rebuild them.

901
00:31:17,583 --> 00:31:19,125
Sometimes I find my work in Atlanta,

902
00:31:19,125 --> 00:31:20,541
Canada, can be frustrating because

903
00:31:20,541 --> 00:31:21,666
there's almost this view

904
00:31:21,666 --> 00:31:23,458
that this is as good as it gets.

905
00:31:24,375 --> 00:31:26,000
So you can tell fishermen that we can

906
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:26,958
rebuild these stocks.

907
00:31:26,958 --> 00:31:27,708
Things will get better.

908
00:31:28,166 --> 00:31:28,583
Well, they've been

909
00:31:28,583 --> 00:31:29,750
hearing that for 30 years.

910
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,125
You know, they they heard

911
00:31:31,125 --> 00:31:32,416
that after the cod collapse.

912
00:31:32,416 --> 00:31:33,291
They heard that after

913
00:31:33,291 --> 00:31:34,333
it's not as quick collapses.

914
00:31:35,375 --> 00:31:38,333
And it's hard not to, you know, to to

915
00:31:38,333 --> 00:31:39,916
feel them, to to hear

916
00:31:39,916 --> 00:31:41,250
their to hear their side.

917
00:31:42,166 --> 00:31:44,125
But the most important thing we can do is

918
00:31:44,125 --> 00:31:45,416
actually protect these to

919
00:31:45,416 --> 00:31:48,041
rebuild cod, not a forage fish.

920
00:31:48,250 --> 00:31:49,791
But it's a great example of a stock that

921
00:31:49,791 --> 00:31:51,916
was under moratorium for 30 years.

922
00:31:52,250 --> 00:31:53,166
Yet we fished like

923
00:31:53,166 --> 00:31:55,166
10,000 tons every year.

924
00:31:55,708 --> 00:31:57,958
And we wondered why it took so long to

925
00:31:57,958 --> 00:31:59,666
get to a slightly healthier state.

926
00:32:00,500 --> 00:32:02,375
You know, sometimes it's about making

927
00:32:02,375 --> 00:32:05,291
short term hard decisions instead of

928
00:32:05,291 --> 00:32:07,708
prolonging this kind of this this crisis

929
00:32:07,708 --> 00:32:08,916
management we find ourselves in.

930
00:32:09,333 --> 00:32:11,083
And I apologize. I know I say crisis a

931
00:32:11,083 --> 00:32:13,125
lot, but it really feels that way when it

932
00:32:13,125 --> 00:32:14,875
comes to fisheries in this country in the

933
00:32:14,875 --> 00:32:16,208
way that we manage them.

934
00:32:17,250 --> 00:32:20,208
And I feel as as a Canadian, I feel as

935
00:32:20,208 --> 00:32:22,666
though a lot of most Canadians don't

936
00:32:22,666 --> 00:32:24,416
really pay attention to the

937
00:32:24,416 --> 00:32:26,083
numbers and how low they are.

938
00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:28,875
And like you said, it is a crisis.

939
00:32:28,875 --> 00:32:31,000
Like we are at a point like the results

940
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,375
that have come out of this report have

941
00:32:33,375 --> 00:32:34,750
shown really that we're in

942
00:32:34,750 --> 00:32:35,916
really dire straits here.

943
00:32:35,916 --> 00:32:39,291
You know, one out of 16 stock being well

944
00:32:39,291 --> 00:32:40,708
managed or considered

945
00:32:40,708 --> 00:32:43,166
healthy is not a good percentage.

946
00:32:43,500 --> 00:32:45,250
You know, and there are a lot of people

947
00:32:45,250 --> 00:32:46,583
who depend on it from a fishery

948
00:32:46,583 --> 00:32:48,916
standpoint, you know, as well from the

949
00:32:48,916 --> 00:32:51,416
whole supply chain of the processors and

950
00:32:51,416 --> 00:32:52,500
the restaurants or

951
00:32:52,500 --> 00:32:54,708
whatever that might be.

952
00:32:55,041 --> 00:32:57,208
And it's a it's a difficult situation.

953
00:32:57,208 --> 00:32:58,708
Like you said, it's very complex because

954
00:32:58,708 --> 00:33:01,750
people, their livelihoods depend on it.

955
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:03,458
And so they want to continue to fish.

956
00:33:04,041 --> 00:33:05,250
If we're at a point right now where we

957
00:33:05,250 --> 00:33:06,875
can't fish like we were with the

958
00:33:06,875 --> 00:33:08,458
moratorium on on cod.

959
00:33:08,458 --> 00:33:10,541
And like you said, for the mackerel in

960
00:33:10,541 --> 00:33:12,250
Canada, there's a moratorium on that.

961
00:33:12,708 --> 00:33:14,541
The idea is is is the

962
00:33:14,541 --> 00:33:15,916
patience to be patient.

963
00:33:15,916 --> 00:33:18,625
But when you watch a neighbor be able to

964
00:33:18,625 --> 00:33:20,666
fish it and you can't I could see I can

965
00:33:20,666 --> 00:33:22,208
feel that frustration come out of

966
00:33:22,208 --> 00:33:23,416
people's like, well, hold on a second.

967
00:33:23,416 --> 00:33:25,041
They're going to what if they deplete it

968
00:33:25,041 --> 00:33:26,750
and then we'll never be able to fish it

969
00:33:26,750 --> 00:33:27,875
to the levels that we were

970
00:33:27,875 --> 00:33:29,458
able to fish at one point.

971
00:33:29,458 --> 00:33:30,708
And you guys are promising us that.

972
00:33:30,750 --> 00:33:34,166
So that cross border cooperation, which

973
00:33:34,166 --> 00:33:36,500
has been traditionally pretty good in the

974
00:33:36,500 --> 00:33:38,208
East Coast, like from a fishery

975
00:33:38,208 --> 00:33:40,500
standpoint, obviously now maybe a little

976
00:33:40,500 --> 00:33:42,125
it's and you may know more a little bit

977
00:33:42,125 --> 00:33:43,416
more than I do just because you're in

978
00:33:43,416 --> 00:33:44,375
those fisheries relations.

979
00:33:44,541 --> 00:33:47,166
The tariff wars, the relationship between

980
00:33:47,166 --> 00:33:48,875
the U.S. and Canada is not as great.

981
00:33:49,333 --> 00:33:51,291
That may be a bearing on it, too.

982
00:33:51,500 --> 00:33:53,166
We know down south their environmental

983
00:33:53,166 --> 00:33:55,958
policies are a lot different than ours as

984
00:33:55,958 --> 00:33:57,916
they are now compared to even a year and

985
00:33:57,916 --> 00:33:58,958
a half ago or two years ago.

986
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:03,166
And so it all kind of puts into this like

987
00:34:03,166 --> 00:34:05,000
into the blender and it makes these

988
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,041
cumulative impacts

989
00:34:06,041 --> 00:34:08,166
even harder to to manage.

990
00:34:08,958 --> 00:34:12,541
So I guess, you know, we're like when we

991
00:34:12,541 --> 00:34:16,541
look at at the level of fortress, we're

992
00:34:16,541 --> 00:34:18,625
talking about fisheries and how much fish

993
00:34:18,625 --> 00:34:19,500
we can actually catch.

994
00:34:19,833 --> 00:34:23,000
How is this affecting or could affect the

995
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,291
ecosystem in general?

996
00:34:24,541 --> 00:34:26,833
So, you know, we know whales, seabirds,

997
00:34:27,166 --> 00:34:29,666
cod, salmon, sharks, and even any kind of

998
00:34:29,666 --> 00:34:30,833
coastal tourism, they all

999
00:34:30,833 --> 00:34:32,291
depend on forage fish, right?

1000
00:34:32,291 --> 00:34:34,500
So it's not just people. It's it's it's

1001
00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:35,458
the environment as well.

1002
00:34:35,458 --> 00:34:36,583
The ocean species as well.

1003
00:34:36,833 --> 00:34:38,750
How could this affect them as we start to

1004
00:34:38,750 --> 00:34:40,625
see these levels or these levels or

1005
00:34:40,625 --> 00:34:42,625
seeing these levels of of forage fish

1006
00:34:42,625 --> 00:34:43,833
where they are right now?

1007
00:34:44,875 --> 00:34:46,333
Well, you know, one one great person

1008
00:34:46,333 --> 00:34:47,333
that's profiled in our

1009
00:34:47,333 --> 00:34:49,125
report is is Shelly Lonerpin.

1010
00:34:49,166 --> 00:34:54,541
So she works at a whale watching company.

1011
00:34:55,416 --> 00:34:56,500
She is that she is actually

1012
00:34:56,500 --> 00:34:57,875
a scientist, a researcher.

1013
00:34:58,750 --> 00:35:00,000
But, you know, she's she's been with that

1014
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,583
organization for for at

1015
00:35:02,583 --> 00:35:03,583
least 30 years, I believe.

1016
00:35:03,916 --> 00:35:06,291
And, you know, it's kind of frustrating

1017
00:35:06,291 --> 00:35:08,125
to talk to somebody who's who's been

1018
00:35:08,125 --> 00:35:09,833
around the block a bit more because you

1019
00:35:09,833 --> 00:35:11,375
kind of realize that this

1020
00:35:11,375 --> 00:35:13,000
is this problem isn't new.

1021
00:35:13,750 --> 00:35:15,083
She's been someone who's been sounding

1022
00:35:15,083 --> 00:35:16,583
the alarm on this for decades.

1023
00:35:17,458 --> 00:35:19,750
And unfortunately, you know, a voice like

1024
00:35:19,750 --> 00:35:21,833
hers, a voice of someone who is

1025
00:35:21,833 --> 00:35:23,708
contributing to the local economy, who

1026
00:35:23,708 --> 00:35:25,916
lives in an extremely rural place, a

1027
00:35:25,916 --> 00:35:28,541
rural island in the Bay of Fundy, you

1028
00:35:28,541 --> 00:35:30,458
know, her voice is not a voice that's

1029
00:35:30,458 --> 00:35:32,458
heard at fishery advisory meetings.

1030
00:35:33,250 --> 00:35:33,958
When I think of another

1031
00:35:33,958 --> 00:35:35,458
person, I think of Jasmine Paul.

1032
00:35:35,833 --> 00:35:37,625
So a fish harvester in Newfoundland, a

1033
00:35:37,625 --> 00:35:39,916
Labrador, fishes, a lot of crab as her

1034
00:35:39,916 --> 00:35:42,000
kind of, you know, primary economic

1035
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:43,583
fishery also fishes, a lot

1036
00:35:43,583 --> 00:35:44,750
of cod to feed her family.

1037
00:35:45,625 --> 00:35:47,000
She's also not allowed in

1038
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:48,125
these advisory meetings.

1039
00:35:48,125 --> 00:35:50,916
And so I often think about, you know, who

1040
00:35:50,916 --> 00:35:53,416
who is actually at the table at these

1041
00:35:53,416 --> 00:35:55,583
meetings, the fishermen and the fishing

1042
00:35:55,583 --> 00:35:57,750
organizations and the seafood processors

1043
00:35:57,750 --> 00:36:00,750
often lament that there is one NGO person

1044
00:36:00,750 --> 00:36:03,833
sitting in the corner when, you know, the

1045
00:36:03,833 --> 00:36:05,333
reality is these these

1046
00:36:05,333 --> 00:36:06,500
should be huge meetings.

1047
00:36:06,708 --> 00:36:08,250
These meetings should not be scheduled a

1048
00:36:08,250 --> 00:36:11,083
week in advance on a Tuesday in, you

1049
00:36:11,083 --> 00:36:12,125
know, DFO and Dartmouth.

1050
00:36:13,041 --> 00:36:15,375
I have a friend in Newfoundland who works

1051
00:36:15,375 --> 00:36:17,375
a lot on conservation of cod there.

1052
00:36:17,375 --> 00:36:19,958
And she says, you know, that if if they

1053
00:36:19,958 --> 00:36:22,125
made the cod advisory public, you'd have

1054
00:36:22,125 --> 00:36:23,875
to fill the Mary Brown Center there.

1055
00:36:24,541 --> 00:36:26,333
People care so deeply

1056
00:36:26,333 --> 00:36:28,000
about fish in this country.

1057
00:36:28,708 --> 00:36:30,583
And so one of the main challenges is

1058
00:36:30,583 --> 00:36:31,166
actually getting

1059
00:36:31,166 --> 00:36:32,333
those voices in the room.

1060
00:36:32,916 --> 00:36:35,041
When you're in a room with the same guys

1061
00:36:35,041 --> 00:36:37,291
and it's largely men who have been around

1062
00:36:37,291 --> 00:36:39,208
when these stocks, you know, since these

1063
00:36:39,208 --> 00:36:40,250
stocks all collapse,

1064
00:36:40,666 --> 00:36:42,208
you're going to have different.

1065
00:36:42,375 --> 00:36:43,250
Kind of view that's

1066
00:36:43,250 --> 00:36:44,416
informing these decisions.

1067
00:36:45,125 --> 00:36:46,708
I always like to remind people because

1068
00:36:46,708 --> 00:36:48,708
these meetings can be a little tense is

1069
00:36:48,708 --> 00:36:50,583
that this is a public resource.

1070
00:36:51,166 --> 00:36:53,125
This is no one's individual resource.

1071
00:36:54,333 --> 00:36:56,416
And when it comes to the economics of

1072
00:36:56,416 --> 00:36:58,041
these stocks as well, it's even more

1073
00:36:58,041 --> 00:36:59,666
frustrating because they only represent

1074
00:36:59,666 --> 00:37:00,916
around 2 percent of

1075
00:37:00,916 --> 00:37:03,166
Canada's wild fisheries value.

1076
00:37:03,791 --> 00:37:05,458
That's not even including aquaculture,

1077
00:37:05,666 --> 00:37:06,791
which is a huge amount of

1078
00:37:06,791 --> 00:37:08,791
our of our fisheries economy.

1079
00:37:09,666 --> 00:37:11,750
So it's a very small amount of fish that

1080
00:37:11,750 --> 00:37:12,875
we're benefiting from.

1081
00:37:13,833 --> 00:37:16,416
But for some reason, we cannot we cannot

1082
00:37:16,416 --> 00:37:17,750
remove the stranglehold.

1083
00:37:18,958 --> 00:37:21,083
One one example I'd like to raise is

1084
00:37:21,083 --> 00:37:22,958
going back to Shelley in the Bay of Fundy

1085
00:37:22,958 --> 00:37:25,208
is the Bay of Fundy herring stock.

1086
00:37:25,916 --> 00:37:28,000
It is one of the most depleted stocks

1087
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:29,500
forage for stocks in this country.

1088
00:37:30,125 --> 00:37:32,333
And yet it has the highest forage fish

1089
00:37:32,333 --> 00:37:33,333
quota in the country.

1090
00:37:33,750 --> 00:37:34,791
Twenty thousand tons.

1091
00:37:35,666 --> 00:37:37,583
And if we look as to why is that?

1092
00:37:38,041 --> 00:37:39,708
Well, you know, there are about maybe

1093
00:37:39,708 --> 00:37:41,416
three, four hundred people that fish

1094
00:37:41,416 --> 00:37:44,250
herring in the Bay of Fundy around, you

1095
00:37:44,250 --> 00:37:45,375
know, the vast majority

1096
00:37:45,375 --> 00:37:47,125
of them are weir fishers.

1097
00:37:47,125 --> 00:37:48,875
So it's a traditional gear type.

1098
00:37:49,500 --> 00:37:51,708
And they only fish like 300 guys.

1099
00:37:51,708 --> 00:37:53,375
They only fish 30 percent of the quota.

1100
00:37:54,041 --> 00:37:57,333
So you have 300 people sharing one third

1101
00:37:57,333 --> 00:37:59,125
of the quota and then you have nine

1102
00:37:59,125 --> 00:38:00,500
industrial boats

1103
00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:02,083
fishing the other 70 percent.

1104
00:38:03,041 --> 00:38:05,166
So that's a great example of where, you

1105
00:38:05,166 --> 00:38:07,875
know, number one, we're overfishing and

1106
00:38:07,875 --> 00:38:10,041
number two, the benefits of that are

1107
00:38:10,041 --> 00:38:12,958
going to a small group of people at the

1108
00:38:12,958 --> 00:38:14,208
expense of hundreds

1109
00:38:14,208 --> 00:38:15,791
that rely on these fish.

1110
00:38:15,791 --> 00:38:18,833
So what a lot of what I try to do is kind

1111
00:38:18,833 --> 00:38:20,958
of my side job is just, you know, make

1112
00:38:20,958 --> 00:38:23,333
this these things more public, make the

1113
00:38:23,333 --> 00:38:25,375
advisories more public, tell people I'm

1114
00:38:25,375 --> 00:38:26,083
happy to raise their

1115
00:38:26,083 --> 00:38:27,500
questions at advisories.

1116
00:38:27,791 --> 00:38:29,791
Because as of right now, we have a real

1117
00:38:29,791 --> 00:38:32,250
industry capture, which just limits the

1118
00:38:32,250 --> 00:38:34,291
efficacy of these advisory boards.

1119
00:38:35,500 --> 00:38:37,708
Yeah. And I mean, that's it's it's it's

1120
00:38:37,708 --> 00:38:39,458
really concerning when you like you said,

1121
00:38:39,750 --> 00:38:41,208
a small percentage benefit

1122
00:38:41,208 --> 00:38:42,875
from catching all those fish.

1123
00:38:43,083 --> 00:38:44,291
But there's like hundreds of people who

1124
00:38:44,291 --> 00:38:47,000
don't, you know, who rely on it.

1125
00:38:47,375 --> 00:38:48,625
But, you know, they're the ones who are

1126
00:38:48,625 --> 00:38:50,125
really going to be affected because these

1127
00:38:50,125 --> 00:38:52,708
businesses can turn and pivot and do and

1128
00:38:52,708 --> 00:38:54,541
catch other fish where these artisanal

1129
00:38:54,541 --> 00:38:56,541
fishers who depend on it were local.

1130
00:38:57,083 --> 00:38:59,500
They're the ones who pay for it.

1131
00:39:00,500 --> 00:39:02,250
When you talk to the like, when you talk

1132
00:39:02,250 --> 00:39:05,083
to those those smaller fishermen, like

1133
00:39:05,083 --> 00:39:07,708
smaller scale fishermen, what are their

1134
00:39:07,708 --> 00:39:09,666
views on it compared to some of the

1135
00:39:09,666 --> 00:39:11,500
others you say it can get kind of heated

1136
00:39:11,500 --> 00:39:13,958
at some of these some of these meetings?

1137
00:39:14,458 --> 00:39:15,708
Is it because of those small scale

1138
00:39:15,708 --> 00:39:17,458
fishers are battling the big industry?

1139
00:39:20,750 --> 00:39:21,875
Excuse my pause.

1140
00:39:21,875 --> 00:39:23,291
Fisheries are just so complicated.

1141
00:39:23,791 --> 00:39:24,416
Yeah, no problem.

1142
00:39:25,375 --> 00:39:26,666
And this part of the country where I

1143
00:39:26,666 --> 00:39:30,083
work, but, you know, one one.

1144
00:39:30,791 --> 00:39:32,583
So one example of why it's so hard.

1145
00:39:32,958 --> 00:39:34,708
So, you know, I've had colleagues that

1146
00:39:34,708 --> 00:39:36,458
have talked to dozens of fishermen in

1147
00:39:36,458 --> 00:39:37,333
Newfoundland and Labrador.

1148
00:39:38,250 --> 00:39:40,291
It's very hard to find a fisherman that

1149
00:39:40,291 --> 00:39:41,750
supports the capelin fishery.

1150
00:39:41,750 --> 00:39:43,458
A lot of people, they find it quite

1151
00:39:43,458 --> 00:39:45,750
egregious that we're fishing the food

1152
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:46,791
source for cod, you

1153
00:39:46,791 --> 00:39:48,000
know, this iconic species.

1154
00:39:48,791 --> 00:39:51,125
It's hard to get anybody to say, you

1155
00:39:51,125 --> 00:39:52,041
know, one on one, they

1156
00:39:52,041 --> 00:39:53,333
support the capelin fishery.

1157
00:39:53,833 --> 00:39:56,166
But when it comes to being in public, you

1158
00:39:56,166 --> 00:39:58,958
know, they're they're members of a ten

1159
00:39:58,958 --> 00:40:00,166
thousand strong union.

1160
00:40:00,583 --> 00:40:02,416
They don't want to be someone that speaks

1161
00:40:02,416 --> 00:40:04,083
against their union members, particularly

1162
00:40:04,083 --> 00:40:06,041
when there are other people that are

1163
00:40:06,041 --> 00:40:08,583
benefiting greatly from even worse

1164
00:40:08,583 --> 00:40:09,708
environmental things.

1165
00:40:10,541 --> 00:40:12,208
When it comes to herring in the Bay of

1166
00:40:12,208 --> 00:40:14,666
Fundy, as I said, there are hundreds that

1167
00:40:14,666 --> 00:40:16,625
you should use traditional gear.

1168
00:40:17,208 --> 00:40:18,250
Why aren't they speaking out?

1169
00:40:18,500 --> 00:40:20,500
Well, they have to sell their catch to

1170
00:40:20,500 --> 00:40:22,541
the to the seafood processors.

1171
00:40:22,875 --> 00:40:23,333
And guess what?

1172
00:40:23,333 --> 00:40:25,125
Those seafood processors own

1173
00:40:25,125 --> 00:40:26,500
the nine per seining fleets.

1174
00:40:27,416 --> 00:40:28,500
So it's this really

1175
00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:29,750
uncomfortable situation.

1176
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,250
And, you know, what I often try to tell

1177
00:40:32,250 --> 00:40:34,458
my my colleagues is that I don't want to

1178
00:40:34,458 --> 00:40:36,500
put anyone in a position where they are

1179
00:40:36,500 --> 00:40:38,375
uncomfortable, you know, having

1180
00:40:38,375 --> 00:40:40,500
highlighting these voices in our report.

1181
00:40:42,083 --> 00:40:43,125
It's not easy to do.

1182
00:40:43,166 --> 00:40:43,916
Getting people to

1183
00:40:43,916 --> 00:40:45,583
agree to this isn't easy.

1184
00:40:45,583 --> 00:40:48,125
And also ensuring that they 100 percent

1185
00:40:48,125 --> 00:40:49,500
know the risk that is

1186
00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:50,708
involved with speaking out.

1187
00:40:50,958 --> 00:40:52,708
You know, like we don't just try to get

1188
00:40:52,708 --> 00:40:53,625
somebody and have them

1189
00:40:53,625 --> 00:40:54,708
speak and say, OK, great.

1190
00:40:54,708 --> 00:40:56,583
See you later. We want to ensure that

1191
00:40:56,583 --> 00:40:58,208
they're you know, they're going to be OK,

1192
00:40:58,208 --> 00:40:58,916
that they're comfortable.

1193
00:41:00,166 --> 00:41:02,333
And so that is probably one of the more

1194
00:41:02,333 --> 00:41:04,333
frustrating parts of fisheries management

1195
00:41:04,333 --> 00:41:05,958
is getting people's voices out there

1196
00:41:05,958 --> 00:41:07,083
because, you know, people care.

1197
00:41:07,125 --> 00:41:09,958
I was just in Newfoundland and Labrador a

1198
00:41:09,958 --> 00:41:12,666
few weeks ago and I was talking to some

1199
00:41:12,666 --> 00:41:14,750
local people and they were like people

1200
00:41:14,750 --> 00:41:15,666
that have lived there for decades.

1201
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:17,541
They couldn't believe that there was a

1202
00:41:17,541 --> 00:41:18,875
commercial fishery for Cape Lynn.

1203
00:41:19,458 --> 00:41:20,416
You know, a lot of this

1204
00:41:20,416 --> 00:41:22,625
stuff is just it's not public.

1205
00:41:22,625 --> 00:41:24,250
It's not it's not it's

1206
00:41:24,250 --> 00:41:25,458
not the headline news.

1207
00:41:25,458 --> 00:41:27,208
It's not a war in the Middle East or it's

1208
00:41:27,208 --> 00:41:29,416
not, you know, a major crisis

1209
00:41:29,416 --> 00:41:30,875
in our own in our own country.

1210
00:41:31,375 --> 00:41:33,416
But it's something that happens day after

1211
00:41:33,416 --> 00:41:35,958
day in the public view, you know, and

1212
00:41:35,958 --> 00:41:37,250
managed by our government.

1213
00:41:38,166 --> 00:41:40,541
DFO employs what 10000 people.

1214
00:41:41,250 --> 00:41:43,500
Why is that many people can't manage

1215
00:41:43,500 --> 00:41:44,583
fisheries sustainably?

1216
00:41:44,583 --> 00:41:46,250
So, again, you know, from the more

1217
00:41:46,250 --> 00:41:48,875
positive view, we're offering this as a

1218
00:41:48,875 --> 00:41:50,708
real solution since they clearly don't

1219
00:41:50,708 --> 00:41:51,416
know what they're doing.

1220
00:41:51,916 --> 00:41:53,875
So why not just try to rebuild, you know,

1221
00:41:53,875 --> 00:41:55,333
16 stocks instead of 200?

1222
00:41:55,666 --> 00:41:57,208
Because it's far easier to do.

1223
00:41:57,833 --> 00:41:58,791
Yeah, no, absolutely.

1224
00:41:59,166 --> 00:42:01,625
Now, we move towards like the like the

1225
00:42:01,625 --> 00:42:03,666
fisheries management policy for Canada.

1226
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:05,375
There's some pretty strong fisheries

1227
00:42:05,375 --> 00:42:07,625
management policies, but it seems like

1228
00:42:07,625 --> 00:42:09,083
the implementation or the enforcement of

1229
00:42:09,083 --> 00:42:11,250
those policies is a little weak, you

1230
00:42:11,250 --> 00:42:12,666
know, in terms of like I've seen this

1231
00:42:12,666 --> 00:42:16,000
before, not only with with Forage Fish,

1232
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,041
but we've seen it with with cod recently

1233
00:42:18,041 --> 00:42:20,041
in terms of like here's the science.

1234
00:42:20,833 --> 00:42:22,458
You know, the science should dictate what

1235
00:42:22,458 --> 00:42:23,416
we do in the policy.

1236
00:42:23,625 --> 00:42:26,041
I think with cod, it was like they're not

1237
00:42:26,041 --> 00:42:27,958
really growing and where there's a

1238
00:42:27,958 --> 00:42:29,500
concern that they're going to dip below

1239
00:42:29,500 --> 00:42:31,125
if we continue to fish.

1240
00:42:31,416 --> 00:42:32,583
So the science says we

1241
00:42:32,583 --> 00:42:34,875
shouldn't open up more quotas.

1242
00:42:35,458 --> 00:42:37,333
But then last year, I believe it was last

1243
00:42:37,333 --> 00:42:39,500
year where they, you know, DFO ended up

1244
00:42:39,500 --> 00:42:41,291
opening up more of course to offshore,

1245
00:42:41,916 --> 00:42:43,416
which hadn't been done in a long time.

1246
00:42:44,583 --> 00:42:46,625
With Forage Fish, we know that there's a

1247
00:42:46,625 --> 00:42:47,500
lot that's decreasing.

1248
00:42:47,500 --> 00:42:49,583
We know that there's only one healthy

1249
00:42:49,583 --> 00:42:50,916
population of Forage Fish.

1250
00:42:51,541 --> 00:42:52,041
But we're not

1251
00:42:52,041 --> 00:42:53,625
implementing these types of changes.

1252
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:55,208
You mentioned earlier, it

1253
00:42:55,208 --> 00:42:56,250
could be due to politics.

1254
00:42:57,333 --> 00:42:59,916
Is it is that the only reason and how can

1255
00:42:59,916 --> 00:43:03,750
that be made better, essentially, like

1256
00:43:03,750 --> 00:43:05,916
how do we stop that from happening?

1257
00:43:07,375 --> 00:43:09,041
Yeah, well, number one is definitely due

1258
00:43:09,041 --> 00:43:12,833
to politics, you know, as I've kind of

1259
00:43:12,833 --> 00:43:15,166
alluded in this conversation, by no means

1260
00:43:15,166 --> 00:43:17,500
is America the example of what to do.

1261
00:43:17,875 --> 00:43:19,583
But in that country, there

1262
00:43:19,583 --> 00:43:20,750
is no fisheries minister.

1263
00:43:20,958 --> 00:43:22,041
You know, fisheries fall.

1264
00:43:22,333 --> 00:43:24,708
I think they're the 11th like portfolio

1265
00:43:24,708 --> 00:43:26,291
for the commerce secretary.

1266
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:28,250
Whereas in this country, we have a

1267
00:43:28,250 --> 00:43:30,708
minister and that minister is, you know,

1268
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:32,125
dealing with serious

1269
00:43:32,125 --> 00:43:34,083
political fights every day.

1270
00:43:34,958 --> 00:43:36,916
I've been in this job for, you know, just

1271
00:43:36,916 --> 00:43:38,375
four years with Oceana Canada.

1272
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:40,958
In that time, I believe we've had four

1273
00:43:40,958 --> 00:43:43,583
fisheries ministers, you know, so there

1274
00:43:43,583 --> 00:43:45,583
there is no benefit to

1275
00:43:45,583 --> 00:43:46,708
doing the right thing.

1276
00:43:47,041 --> 00:43:48,916
There is no benefit to making a long term

1277
00:43:48,916 --> 00:43:50,166
decision because guess what?

1278
00:43:50,166 --> 00:43:51,250
You're not going to be there.

1279
00:43:52,166 --> 00:43:55,000
You know, so it is it is it is very

1280
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:56,791
frustrating that we're in the situation

1281
00:43:56,791 --> 00:43:59,291
where we politicized our fisheries to

1282
00:43:59,291 --> 00:44:00,041
their own detriment.

1283
00:44:01,083 --> 00:44:03,208
One thing I would say as well is, you

1284
00:44:03,208 --> 00:44:07,041
know, we can often think about these

1285
00:44:07,041 --> 00:44:10,125
stocks in longer time timespans.

1286
00:44:10,375 --> 00:44:12,000
I'm often talking about them in the terms

1287
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:12,708
of decades, which

1288
00:44:12,708 --> 00:44:14,083
really isn't that much time.

1289
00:44:14,541 --> 00:44:16,458
But management focuses

1290
00:44:16,458 --> 00:44:18,000
on year to year changes.

1291
00:44:18,791 --> 00:44:19,750
And so we can sometimes

1292
00:44:19,750 --> 00:44:22,041
lose what we used to have.

1293
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,125
Kaplan is a great example where, you

1294
00:44:25,125 --> 00:44:27,166
know, I was having an interview two days

1295
00:44:27,166 --> 00:44:29,291
ago and they said, oh, but the Kaplan

1296
00:44:29,291 --> 00:44:30,458
stock is doing much better.

1297
00:44:31,291 --> 00:44:33,458
And, you know, because it's 20 percent of

1298
00:44:33,458 --> 00:44:34,708
what it was in the 90s.

1299
00:44:34,708 --> 00:44:36,041
And I said, in what instance

1300
00:44:36,041 --> 00:44:38,750
is a 20 out of 100 and a plus?

1301
00:44:38,791 --> 00:44:41,750
Like if your kids came home and got a 20

1302
00:44:41,750 --> 00:44:44,791
on a test or an exam, you one

1303
00:44:44,791 --> 00:44:46,000
wouldn't be happy with that.

1304
00:44:46,208 --> 00:44:46,666
That isn't it. But

1305
00:44:46,666 --> 00:44:47,791
that is by no means a win.

1306
00:44:47,791 --> 00:44:49,583
And so we just have to shift our

1307
00:44:49,583 --> 00:44:52,333
perspective a bit on, you know, what we

1308
00:44:52,333 --> 00:44:54,166
actually want out of this ocean.

1309
00:44:55,208 --> 00:44:56,791
Yeah, no, I completely agree.

1310
00:44:58,291 --> 00:44:59,541
When you mentioned, like, you know,

1311
00:44:59,750 --> 00:45:01,083
obviously that makes a difference when

1312
00:45:01,083 --> 00:45:03,541
you have four different ministers in the

1313
00:45:03,541 --> 00:45:04,375
same amount of years.

1314
00:45:05,291 --> 00:45:06,541
Do you know the reason

1315
00:45:06,541 --> 00:45:07,541
why they keep switching?

1316
00:45:08,125 --> 00:45:10,125
Has they hasn't been made public of like

1317
00:45:10,125 --> 00:45:11,208
why they keep switching?

1318
00:45:11,208 --> 00:45:12,916
I know it's usually a cabinet shuffle,

1319
00:45:13,166 --> 00:45:14,250
but it's got to be a

1320
00:45:14,250 --> 00:45:15,333
little bit more than that.

1321
00:45:15,333 --> 00:45:17,000
That the minister keeps switching is that

1322
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:18,708
the ministers don't want to be in the

1323
00:45:18,708 --> 00:45:19,833
position for any longer.

1324
00:45:20,458 --> 00:45:21,500
Like, what is that?

1325
00:45:22,333 --> 00:45:26,166
Well, it's a really unforgiving position.

1326
00:45:26,625 --> 00:45:28,958
I don't you know, I may disagree with

1327
00:45:28,958 --> 00:45:31,791
fisheries ministers, but I by no means,

1328
00:45:31,791 --> 00:45:34,666
you know, do so in a personal matter.

1329
00:45:35,541 --> 00:45:37,166
One reason why it changes so much is

1330
00:45:37,166 --> 00:45:38,416
honestly because they lose seats.

1331
00:45:39,041 --> 00:45:41,375
So our previous fisheries minister, Dan

1332
00:45:41,375 --> 00:45:44,000
Lebutilier, she lost her seat.

1333
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,291
The one before her, she

1334
00:45:47,291 --> 00:45:49,000
she she had just resigned.

1335
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:50,583
But the one before her, so four ministers

1336
00:45:50,583 --> 00:45:52,208
ago, she also lost her seat.

1337
00:45:52,541 --> 00:45:55,958
So actually being a minister isn't isn't

1338
00:45:55,958 --> 00:45:59,375
a isn't a safe political option to make.

1339
00:45:59,583 --> 00:46:01,208
It's a great way to get in the cabinet.

1340
00:46:01,250 --> 00:46:03,208
You know, it's probably one of the lower

1341
00:46:03,208 --> 00:46:06,166
levels of a cabinet minister, but it's

1342
00:46:06,166 --> 00:46:08,208
it's a really hard position to be in.

1343
00:46:08,541 --> 00:46:10,250
It is so politicized.

1344
00:46:10,250 --> 00:46:11,416
It is so hard to just

1345
00:46:11,416 --> 00:46:13,125
have scientific discussions.

1346
00:46:14,166 --> 00:46:15,916
Yeah, you know, I'm often in meetings

1347
00:46:15,916 --> 00:46:18,666
where, you know, they'll be saying when I

1348
00:46:18,666 --> 00:46:20,916
say they, I mean, you know, the owners of

1349
00:46:20,916 --> 00:46:22,833
huge seafood processing plants or

1350
00:46:22,833 --> 00:46:25,083
leadership of fisheries unions, rarely

1351
00:46:25,083 --> 00:46:28,125
fishermen themselves say, well, what will

1352
00:46:28,125 --> 00:46:28,958
be out of business if

1353
00:46:28,958 --> 00:46:29,583
this keeps happening?

1354
00:46:30,416 --> 00:46:31,625
And unfortunately, they've

1355
00:46:31,625 --> 00:46:32,791
been saying that for 30 years.

1356
00:46:33,333 --> 00:46:34,916
You know, people are going to figure out

1357
00:46:34,916 --> 00:46:36,958
a way to keep, you know,

1358
00:46:37,291 --> 00:46:38,625
making money off of the ocean.

1359
00:46:39,208 --> 00:46:41,083
What we're positing is a way to actually

1360
00:46:41,083 --> 00:46:43,041
increase the amount of people that can

1361
00:46:43,041 --> 00:46:44,875
work on the water that can get a

1362
00:46:44,875 --> 00:46:46,458
livelihood from this world.

1363
00:46:47,333 --> 00:46:49,708
So the politics is frustrating, but the

1364
00:46:49,708 --> 00:46:51,083
science is probably what

1365
00:46:51,083 --> 00:46:52,416
I would just come back to.

1366
00:46:52,416 --> 00:46:54,791
It's the most clear thing that we have.

1367
00:46:55,375 --> 00:46:58,750
And fisheries is it's an unforgiving

1368
00:46:58,750 --> 00:47:00,000
political portfolio.

1369
00:47:00,583 --> 00:47:02,458
But why not try to rebuild the things

1370
00:47:02,458 --> 00:47:04,583
that have the least value in this

1371
00:47:04,583 --> 00:47:06,333
country, which again is forage fish.

1372
00:47:07,416 --> 00:47:10,083
There are very few fishers, if any, that

1373
00:47:10,083 --> 00:47:11,625
rely their entire

1374
00:47:11,625 --> 00:47:13,750
business on forage fish.

1375
00:47:14,166 --> 00:47:15,875
Many people that fish forage fish are

1376
00:47:15,875 --> 00:47:16,750
also fishing lobster.

1377
00:47:17,041 --> 00:47:18,125
They're also fishing cod.

1378
00:47:18,500 --> 00:47:19,291
They're fishing a lot

1379
00:47:19,291 --> 00:47:20,125
of different things.

1380
00:47:20,500 --> 00:47:23,166
So, you know, by by ratcheting down the

1381
00:47:23,166 --> 00:47:24,708
fishing is by no means

1382
00:47:24,708 --> 00:47:26,125
going to put people out of work.

1383
00:47:26,500 --> 00:47:28,000
It's just going to change the portfolios

1384
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:28,958
of fishing that we have.

1385
00:47:30,083 --> 00:47:33,083
I also would be remiss if I didn't

1386
00:47:33,083 --> 00:47:33,666
mention that we're

1387
00:47:33,666 --> 00:47:34,916
actually not calling for closures.

1388
00:47:35,708 --> 00:47:38,000
We do call for a closure on Cape Lynn and

1389
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:39,041
Newfoundland because that

1390
00:47:39,041 --> 00:47:40,458
is historically mismanaged.

1391
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,125
But out of these 16 stocks, we actually

1392
00:47:43,125 --> 00:47:44,000
have a lot of different

1393
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:45,916
calls for what should happen.

1394
00:47:46,375 --> 00:47:48,458
So, you know, and some of that is

1395
00:47:48,458 --> 00:47:50,083
ratcheting down fishing pressure.

1396
00:47:50,083 --> 00:47:51,583
Some else of it is just doing more

1397
00:47:51,583 --> 00:47:53,125
research, doing better science.

1398
00:47:54,208 --> 00:47:56,458
So the answer here isn't it isn't simple,

1399
00:47:56,458 --> 00:47:57,875
but it's also not that dramatic.

1400
00:47:58,250 --> 00:47:59,458
It's not about shutting down fisheries.

1401
00:47:59,750 --> 00:48:01,458
It's about managing them to rebuild.

1402
00:48:02,458 --> 00:48:04,708
Gotcha. OK, very good to know.

1403
00:48:05,208 --> 00:48:06,916
Now, one of the strongest themes in the

1404
00:48:06,916 --> 00:48:08,958
report is the integration of indigenous

1405
00:48:08,958 --> 00:48:10,916
knowledge systems with

1406
00:48:10,916 --> 00:48:12,333
like Western science.

1407
00:48:12,333 --> 00:48:12,958
We're seeing that a lot

1408
00:48:12,958 --> 00:48:14,208
across Canada right now.

1409
00:48:14,625 --> 00:48:15,791
Obviously, fisheries is

1410
00:48:15,791 --> 00:48:17,458
really important in this.

1411
00:48:17,583 --> 00:48:19,875
Why is it so important to integrate these

1412
00:48:19,875 --> 00:48:20,833
two systems together?

1413
00:48:22,125 --> 00:48:23,791
Yes, so we have one person featured in

1414
00:48:23,791 --> 00:48:25,333
the report, Sierra Hall from

1415
00:48:25,333 --> 00:48:26,750
the Kitasu Heihe's territory.

1416
00:48:27,708 --> 00:48:30,333
And, you know, she she's a stewardship

1417
00:48:30,333 --> 00:48:33,458
worker and she talks about, you know, why

1418
00:48:33,458 --> 00:48:34,916
herring are so important,

1419
00:48:34,916 --> 00:48:36,000
both to her, to her

1420
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,083
community, but also to her region.

1421
00:48:39,041 --> 00:48:41,208
So the herring stock that she cares about

1422
00:48:41,208 --> 00:48:42,916
deeply is what DFO would

1423
00:48:42,916 --> 00:48:44,416
call central coast herring.

1424
00:48:45,208 --> 00:48:46,708
That stock may not be critically

1425
00:48:46,708 --> 00:48:50,375
depleted, but her bay that she lives in

1426
00:48:50,375 --> 00:48:51,875
hasn't seen herring in

1427
00:48:51,875 --> 00:48:53,500
large numbers in many years.

1428
00:48:54,333 --> 00:48:56,166
And so one of the things that we can

1429
00:48:56,166 --> 00:48:58,375
learn by pairing Western science with

1430
00:48:58,375 --> 00:49:01,375
indigenous knowledge is by stop focusing

1431
00:49:01,375 --> 00:49:04,625
just on the amount of fish in the water,

1432
00:49:04,833 --> 00:49:07,750
but also focusing where they spawn, how

1433
00:49:07,750 --> 00:49:09,375
many of them there are, how

1434
00:49:09,375 --> 00:49:10,833
many age classes there are.

1435
00:49:11,625 --> 00:49:13,750
I think sometimes people can talk about

1436
00:49:13,750 --> 00:49:15,250
holistic ways of knowing or indigenous

1437
00:49:15,250 --> 00:49:17,958
knowledge as this thing that's a nice to

1438
00:49:17,958 --> 00:49:19,125
do, not a need to do.

1439
00:49:19,750 --> 00:49:21,958
Whereas we see it as actually really

1440
00:49:21,958 --> 00:49:23,791
practical steps to rebuilding

1441
00:49:23,791 --> 00:49:26,416
populations, to be within their

1442
00:49:26,416 --> 00:49:28,500
historical range, to be

1443
00:49:28,500 --> 00:49:29,916
fatter, to be healthier.

1444
00:49:29,916 --> 00:49:30,750
You know, I often say that

1445
00:49:30,750 --> 00:49:31,666
when talking about forage fish.

1446
00:49:31,916 --> 00:49:33,916
I just want them to be fat and healthy

1447
00:49:33,916 --> 00:49:35,416
and I want a lot of them.

1448
00:49:36,208 --> 00:49:38,083
Having the number of fish in the water

1449
00:49:38,083 --> 00:49:40,833
equal a certain amount isn't the win.

1450
00:49:41,208 --> 00:49:41,791
It's about actually

1451
00:49:41,791 --> 00:49:42,833
having them be healthy.

1452
00:49:42,833 --> 00:49:44,333
And that's one place where indigenous

1453
00:49:44,333 --> 00:49:46,166
knowledge systems and that whole world

1454
00:49:46,166 --> 00:49:49,458
view can really help compliment the great

1455
00:49:49,458 --> 00:49:50,958
advances that we have with

1456
00:49:50,958 --> 00:49:52,625
western science right now.

1457
00:49:53,166 --> 00:49:53,625
Got you.

1458
00:49:54,125 --> 00:49:57,583
And do you find in your experience, like

1459
00:49:57,583 --> 00:50:00,500
when you when we look at how fisheries

1460
00:50:00,500 --> 00:50:02,375
management happens, do

1461
00:50:02,375 --> 00:50:03,500
you find that it's ignored?

1462
00:50:04,500 --> 00:50:06,125
Like just in your in your discussions

1463
00:50:06,125 --> 00:50:09,000
with indigenous people, do you find that

1464
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:10,541
it's that fisheries management in the

1465
00:50:10,541 --> 00:50:13,250
past has ignored what they want or what

1466
00:50:13,250 --> 00:50:14,208
they're going through?

1467
00:50:14,208 --> 00:50:15,000
And a lot of times in

1468
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:15,791
these coastal communities.

1469
00:50:17,041 --> 00:50:20,000
Well, when it comes to the past, they've

1470
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,750
definitely been ignored completely when

1471
00:50:22,750 --> 00:50:24,708
it comes to the present,

1472
00:50:24,708 --> 00:50:27,125
they still face many challenges.

1473
00:50:27,666 --> 00:50:30,250
You know, I sit on advisory committees

1474
00:50:30,250 --> 00:50:33,166
which feature members of First Nations

1475
00:50:33,166 --> 00:50:34,958
from the East Coast of this country.

1476
00:50:35,791 --> 00:50:37,666
And often when I speak to them about

1477
00:50:37,666 --> 00:50:39,583
these things, you know, there might be

1478
00:50:39,583 --> 00:50:41,750
one staff member for one nation sitting

1479
00:50:41,750 --> 00:50:43,583
on 10 different advisories.

1480
00:50:44,083 --> 00:50:46,500
They don't have the time to, you know, be

1481
00:50:46,500 --> 00:50:48,250
able to go through the science, go

1482
00:50:48,250 --> 00:50:50,708
through all of it and then have to debate

1483
00:50:50,708 --> 00:50:53,041
what is often a room of angry fishermen

1484
00:50:53,041 --> 00:50:54,708
or seafood processors

1485
00:50:54,708 --> 00:50:56,458
on what should be done.

1486
00:50:57,541 --> 00:50:59,250
That our kind of governance system

1487
00:50:59,250 --> 00:51:01,458
doesn't allow for long term thinking

1488
00:51:01,458 --> 00:51:03,666
doesn't allow for diversity of voices.

1489
00:51:04,583 --> 00:51:06,583
And so it can be really frustrating.

1490
00:51:06,583 --> 00:51:08,375
You know, there there there's one group

1491
00:51:08,375 --> 00:51:09,666
that I work with a lot.

1492
00:51:09,750 --> 00:51:11,875
It's a First Nations group and they put a

1493
00:51:11,875 --> 00:51:14,625
lot of their time on lobster, on salmon,

1494
00:51:15,041 --> 00:51:16,958
on eels, you know, things that are both

1495
00:51:16,958 --> 00:51:18,833
economically important, but also

1496
00:51:18,833 --> 00:51:20,208
extremely culturally important.

1497
00:51:21,375 --> 00:51:24,208
So if I'm the in the NGO, then going to

1498
00:51:24,208 --> 00:51:25,583
them and saying, hey, I think you should

1499
00:51:25,583 --> 00:51:26,750
add another four stocks

1500
00:51:26,750 --> 00:51:27,791
to your list of priorities.

1501
00:51:28,458 --> 00:51:29,250
It's really not fair.

1502
00:51:29,541 --> 00:51:30,416
You know, it's there.

1503
00:51:30,791 --> 00:51:32,833
They're people just, you

1504
00:51:32,833 --> 00:51:33,750
know, have their limits.

1505
00:51:34,791 --> 00:51:36,208
What I often say when I'm with these

1506
00:51:36,208 --> 00:51:38,500
advisories and, you know, fishermen are

1507
00:51:38,500 --> 00:51:40,250
angry that I'm there is I often say,

1508
00:51:40,250 --> 00:51:42,500
listen, I only sit on the most depleted

1509
00:51:42,500 --> 00:51:43,625
stocks in this country.

1510
00:51:44,083 --> 00:51:44,791
And guess what?

1511
00:51:44,791 --> 00:51:46,291
If they rebuild, I'll leave.

1512
00:51:46,833 --> 00:51:47,750
I don't want to be here.

1513
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,000
It's often what I tell them when they're

1514
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:51,791
growling at me or being angry or

1515
00:51:51,791 --> 00:51:53,000
following me in the bathroom.

1516
00:51:53,625 --> 00:51:56,166
I don't want to be here and I won't be if

1517
00:51:56,166 --> 00:51:57,208
we rebuild these stocks.

1518
00:51:57,458 --> 00:51:59,291
So, you know, I think that's one thing

1519
00:51:59,291 --> 00:52:00,791
that's often missed is how

1520
00:52:00,791 --> 00:52:02,666
much work has to go into this.

1521
00:52:03,166 --> 00:52:05,041
And so, you know, when we talk about

1522
00:52:05,041 --> 00:52:06,666
First Nations or we talk about other

1523
00:52:06,666 --> 00:52:09,041
groups involvement, you know, what why

1524
00:52:09,041 --> 00:52:11,625
would they want to if the system that

1525
00:52:11,625 --> 00:52:14,458
governs these stocks is so anathema to

1526
00:52:14,458 --> 00:52:16,208
any different view of the world.

1527
00:52:16,458 --> 00:52:18,916
So, sorry, that's kind of a long story

1528
00:52:18,916 --> 00:52:20,458
there, but that's perfect.

1529
00:52:21,500 --> 00:52:21,916
Yeah, yeah.

1530
00:52:22,416 --> 00:52:24,625
It definitely defines what we need to

1531
00:52:24,625 --> 00:52:25,875
look for in the future.

1532
00:52:26,916 --> 00:52:30,375
And speaking on that, you know, we look

1533
00:52:30,375 --> 00:52:35,416
at a DFO like in your opinion, what

1534
00:52:35,416 --> 00:52:38,041
should like the citizens of Canada do,

1535
00:52:39,166 --> 00:52:41,291
you know, to help this process along to

1536
00:52:41,291 --> 00:52:43,958
make sure that DFO is actually like

1537
00:52:43,958 --> 00:52:45,541
following the science and making the

1538
00:52:45,541 --> 00:52:48,708
decisions for the longer term recovery or

1539
00:52:48,708 --> 00:52:51,750
longer term sort of prognosis rather than

1540
00:52:51,750 --> 00:52:54,791
a year by year type of decision making.

1541
00:52:54,791 --> 00:52:58,041
Well, you know, I think one thing that

1542
00:52:58,041 --> 00:53:01,166
the average person can do is, you know,

1543
00:53:01,166 --> 00:53:01,875
it's really frustrating.

1544
00:53:02,166 --> 00:53:05,041
This question reminds me, as I said, I

1545
00:53:05,041 --> 00:53:06,541
was in Ottawa last week and there was

1546
00:53:06,541 --> 00:53:08,541
somebody, you know, one member of

1547
00:53:08,541 --> 00:53:11,208
parliament who I thought was very well

1548
00:53:11,208 --> 00:53:13,375
informed on these issues and, you know,

1549
00:53:13,375 --> 00:53:15,833
talking to them learn very quickly that

1550
00:53:15,833 --> 00:53:17,000
they just have so

1551
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:18,083
many things to deal with.

1552
00:53:18,541 --> 00:53:20,500
Not only are they focused on fisheries,

1553
00:53:20,500 --> 00:53:22,208
but they're also focused on, you know,

1554
00:53:22,208 --> 00:53:23,416
helping small businesses in their

1555
00:53:23,416 --> 00:53:26,000
communities. Their their portfolio that

1556
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:27,583
they work on is so large.

1557
00:53:28,375 --> 00:53:30,875
And so when it came to when it came to

1558
00:53:30,875 --> 00:53:32,416
talking to fisheries, they just had very,

1559
00:53:32,416 --> 00:53:34,291
you know, kind of simple questions on,

1560
00:53:34,291 --> 00:53:35,875
wait, these stocks aren't that healthy?

1561
00:53:36,500 --> 00:53:38,000
Because what they're hearing from the

1562
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:39,250
government, what they're hearing from the

1563
00:53:39,250 --> 00:53:41,500
bureaucracy is that things are fine, that

1564
00:53:41,500 --> 00:53:42,583
the status quo is working.

1565
00:53:43,625 --> 00:53:45,291
And so I always find it really

1566
00:53:45,291 --> 00:53:47,625
frustrating to, you know, for me as a

1567
00:53:47,625 --> 00:53:49,291
scientist who, you know, this is my full

1568
00:53:49,291 --> 00:53:51,500
time job and I really benefit from it.

1569
00:53:51,875 --> 00:53:53,708
But to then tell somebody who, you know,

1570
00:53:53,708 --> 00:53:55,375
has so many concerns with their day to

1571
00:53:55,375 --> 00:53:58,041
day lives that all you have to do is call

1572
00:53:58,041 --> 00:53:59,750
your member of parliament and demand that

1573
00:53:59,750 --> 00:54:01,416
they that they should read this, that

1574
00:54:01,416 --> 00:54:02,333
they should know better.

1575
00:54:03,625 --> 00:54:05,583
That, you know, that that's a lot to ask.

1576
00:54:06,208 --> 00:54:08,166
One thing I like about Oceana Canada is

1577
00:54:08,166 --> 00:54:10,000
that our ask and our recommendations are

1578
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:11,250
actually pretty simple.

1579
00:54:12,291 --> 00:54:14,958
Right. Although many people that would

1580
00:54:14,958 --> 00:54:18,291
consider themselves opponents to me would

1581
00:54:18,291 --> 00:54:20,875
say that we're radicals or that we're,

1582
00:54:20,875 --> 00:54:23,000
you know, kind of crazy tree huggers.

1583
00:54:23,416 --> 00:54:25,791
Our recommendations are very simple. It's

1584
00:54:25,791 --> 00:54:27,833
just about following the law. It's about

1585
00:54:27,833 --> 00:54:30,166
protecting these types of stocks to

1586
00:54:30,166 --> 00:54:33,666
remove them from the political arena and

1587
00:54:33,666 --> 00:54:36,625
just focus on, you know, maybe not one

1588
00:54:36,625 --> 00:54:37,750
year, maybe not two years.

1589
00:54:37,833 --> 00:54:39,875
But how about even just a five year view

1590
00:54:39,875 --> 00:54:42,458
of the future? So what we really try to

1591
00:54:42,458 --> 00:54:44,916
do is to provide lawmakers to provide the

1592
00:54:44,916 --> 00:54:46,625
government the bureaucracy with really

1593
00:54:46,625 --> 00:54:47,916
simple things they can do.

1594
00:54:48,583 --> 00:54:50,208
And that's what's exciting about this

1595
00:54:50,208 --> 00:54:52,208
forage report. We have really simple

1596
00:54:52,208 --> 00:54:54,125
steps that they can follow. They can

1597
00:54:54,125 --> 00:54:55,083
protect these stocks

1598
00:54:55,083 --> 00:54:56,208
under the Fisheries Act.

1599
00:54:56,750 --> 00:54:58,416
They're having a really hard time

1600
00:54:58,416 --> 00:55:00,291
protecting the two hundred stocks that we

1601
00:55:00,291 --> 00:55:02,333
have. They've only protected 30 so far.

1602
00:55:02,333 --> 00:55:04,166
They've only protected three forage fish.

1603
00:55:04,750 --> 00:55:07,000
Why not in the next round, you batch all

1604
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,791
the forward fish? Why not remove these

1605
00:55:09,791 --> 00:55:11,875
stocks from the uncertain zone and give

1606
00:55:11,875 --> 00:55:13,666
them rules to be managed by.

1607
00:55:14,375 --> 00:55:15,875
So we're offering really practical

1608
00:55:15,875 --> 00:55:19,083
solutions. And the one benefit of when I

1609
00:55:19,083 --> 00:55:21,041
was in Ottawa telling lawmakers this is

1610
00:55:21,041 --> 00:55:23,250
that even if they didn't agree with our

1611
00:55:23,250 --> 00:55:25,250
position, they had nothing to say to our

1612
00:55:25,250 --> 00:55:26,333
recommendations because

1613
00:55:26,333 --> 00:55:27,833
they're very straightforward.

1614
00:55:28,708 --> 00:55:30,250
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the thing.

1615
00:55:30,250 --> 00:55:32,333
It's not a difficult task, not a

1616
00:55:32,333 --> 00:55:34,583
difficult ask. You know, it's pretty just

1617
00:55:34,583 --> 00:55:37,208
follow the law. You've built the law. Why

1618
00:55:37,208 --> 00:55:38,708
can't we follow that law? And I think

1619
00:55:38,708 --> 00:55:40,166
that's a question that politicians need

1620
00:55:40,166 --> 00:55:42,208
to answer to, you know, and especially

1621
00:55:42,208 --> 00:55:44,875
like I think it's very troubling to look

1622
00:55:44,875 --> 00:55:47,583
at the lack of longevity of

1623
00:55:47,583 --> 00:55:48,625
ministers in that position.

1624
00:55:48,916 --> 00:55:51,750
It doesn't hold for accountability. It

1625
00:55:51,750 --> 00:55:53,125
doesn't hold for systems like, hey, this

1626
00:55:53,125 --> 00:55:54,791
is what the law says. It doesn't matter

1627
00:55:54,791 --> 00:55:57,875
what, you know, the fishing lobby says.

1628
00:55:58,125 --> 00:55:59,708
This is what the law says. So we have to

1629
00:55:59,708 --> 00:56:03,041
follow the law. It's for Canada. It's for

1630
00:56:03,041 --> 00:56:05,500
our fishers. We need to ensure that this

1631
00:56:05,500 --> 00:56:08,416
is working out. I don't get how people

1632
00:56:08,416 --> 00:56:11,541
can get away with not following the law.

1633
00:56:11,833 --> 00:56:13,708
It just doesn't make sense to me. But

1634
00:56:13,708 --> 00:56:15,708
regardless, it's a complicated system and

1635
00:56:15,708 --> 00:56:17,083
it's something we need to do. But the

1636
00:56:17,083 --> 00:56:18,333
biggest thing is the knowledge.

1637
00:56:18,458 --> 00:56:20,416
And this report definitely brings that

1638
00:56:20,416 --> 00:56:22,291
knowledge. So Jack, I appreciate the work

1639
00:56:22,291 --> 00:56:23,541
that you've done and your colleagues have

1640
00:56:23,541 --> 00:56:25,750
done, you know, to bring this together.

1641
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:28,125
All the people who are in the report to

1642
00:56:28,125 --> 00:56:30,041
share their stories. I mean, that's not a

1643
00:56:30,041 --> 00:56:31,625
an easy thing to do. It's nice that

1644
00:56:31,625 --> 00:56:33,500
they're able to do that and share it with

1645
00:56:33,500 --> 00:56:36,291
us and be vulnerable to do that. I highly

1646
00:56:36,291 --> 00:56:38,000
recommend everybody goes get this report.

1647
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:39,083
I'll put it in the show notes so people

1648
00:56:39,083 --> 00:56:41,500
can get access to that. But I want to

1649
00:56:41,500 --> 00:56:42,666
thank you, Jack, for coming on the

1650
00:56:42,666 --> 00:56:44,250
podcast. Love to invite you back on to

1651
00:56:44,250 --> 00:56:46,041
talk more about a forage fish and their

1652
00:56:46,041 --> 00:56:47,875
status. Hopefully next time we have you

1653
00:56:47,875 --> 00:56:48,416
on, we talk to you later.

1654
00:56:48,458 --> 00:56:48,791
I think we're going to have a little bit

1655
00:56:48,791 --> 00:56:51,250
more better on action that is being taken

1656
00:56:51,250 --> 00:56:54,083
by the government. Yeah, absolutely. And

1657
00:56:54,083 --> 00:56:55,750
if I could just say, you know, this

1658
00:56:55,750 --> 00:56:57,791
campaign is just launching. So this

1659
00:56:57,791 --> 00:57:00,791
campaign is, you know, we kind of drafted

1660
00:57:00,791 --> 00:57:03,583
our campaigns to be multi year. And also,

1661
00:57:03,583 --> 00:57:04,750
I would say on this report, what's

1662
00:57:04,750 --> 00:57:06,333
exciting about it is it's actually pretty

1663
00:57:06,333 --> 00:57:08,625
short. It's only around 60 pages. We

1664
00:57:08,625 --> 00:57:11,458
consciously made it short because, you

1665
00:57:11,458 --> 00:57:13,333
know, we're aiming for the politicians or

1666
00:57:13,333 --> 00:57:14,083
aiming for the people

1667
00:57:14,083 --> 00:57:14,833
that can make change.

1668
00:57:15,416 --> 00:57:17,500
And they're really busy. So we made this

1669
00:57:17,500 --> 00:57:19,416
poor accessible. We made this exciting

1670
00:57:19,416 --> 00:57:21,875
and, you know, just follow along Oceania

1671
00:57:21,875 --> 00:57:23,208
Canada because we'll have a lot of

1672
00:57:23,208 --> 00:57:25,083
different social socials over the next

1673
00:57:25,083 --> 00:57:27,416
few weeks that really pull out these

1674
00:57:27,416 --> 00:57:28,000
stories, these

1675
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:29,750
narratives and these perspectives.

1676
00:57:30,791 --> 00:57:32,208
I love it. I want to thank you so much,

1677
00:57:32,208 --> 00:57:33,416
Jack. It was really great having you on

1678
00:57:33,416 --> 00:57:35,875
the podcast. Yes, thanks so much, Andrew.

1679
00:57:35,875 --> 00:57:37,083
Have a good one. Thank you, Jack, for

1680
00:57:37,083 --> 00:57:38,625
joining me on today's episode of the how

1681
00:57:38,625 --> 00:57:39,791
to protect the ocean podcast. It was

1682
00:57:39,791 --> 00:57:40,666
great to have you on.

1683
00:57:41,041 --> 00:57:42,791
Love being able to talk to people from

1684
00:57:42,791 --> 00:57:44,125
Oceania Canada. They're so great and

1685
00:57:44,125 --> 00:57:45,791
they're so passionate about what they do.

1686
00:57:45,791 --> 00:57:47,500
They're not only advocates, but they're

1687
00:57:47,500 --> 00:57:50,875
scientists. They love the fact that we

1688
00:57:50,875 --> 00:57:53,958
can highlight where things are. We're

1689
00:57:53,958 --> 00:57:55,916
most vulnerable in terms of protecting

1690
00:57:55,916 --> 00:57:57,791
our fisheries so that we can fish

1691
00:57:57,791 --> 00:57:59,500
sustainably in the future. I think this

1692
00:57:59,500 --> 00:58:01,291
is a really great mission. I think it's

1693
00:58:01,291 --> 00:58:03,625
something that needs to be found out more

1694
00:58:03,625 --> 00:58:04,916
because without organizations like

1695
00:58:04,916 --> 00:58:06,625
Oceania Canada, a lot of this data

1696
00:58:06,625 --> 00:58:07,916
wouldn't have been found, right?

1697
00:58:07,958 --> 00:58:09,750
We wouldn't have noticed that there's

1698
00:58:09,750 --> 00:58:12,750
only one population of forage fish within

1699
00:58:12,750 --> 00:58:14,458
Canada that we have enough information to

1700
00:58:14,458 --> 00:58:16,041
assess whether they're healthy or not.

1701
00:58:16,625 --> 00:58:19,125
That's a big problem, right? When if we

1702
00:58:19,125 --> 00:58:21,041
don't know about this, we don't even know

1703
00:58:21,041 --> 00:58:22,875
what we don't have information on. How

1704
00:58:22,875 --> 00:58:25,750
can we protect fish that are so important

1705
00:58:25,750 --> 00:58:27,791
that we don't have information on? How

1706
00:58:27,791 --> 00:58:29,666
does that work? That just doesn't work.

1707
00:58:29,708 --> 00:58:31,541
And so without organizations like Oceania

1708
00:58:31,541 --> 00:58:33,500
Canada, people like Jack to be able to

1709
00:58:33,500 --> 00:58:34,875
follow up with this, to be able to take

1710
00:58:34,875 --> 00:58:36,583
that little unknown fish or these little

1711
00:58:36,583 --> 00:58:38,416
unknown fish and say, Hey, you know what?

1712
00:58:38,708 --> 00:58:39,916
We're going to do something about it.

1713
00:58:40,166 --> 00:58:42,666
It's really difficult to continue and be

1714
00:58:42,666 --> 00:58:45,625
able to produce these reports and to be

1715
00:58:45,625 --> 00:58:47,458
able to get better in our fisheries.

1716
00:58:47,458 --> 00:58:50,000
Imagine saying to somebody, Hey, we can't

1717
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:51,458
do better on fisheries or we can't do

1718
00:58:51,458 --> 00:58:52,583
sustainable fishing because we just don't

1719
00:58:52,583 --> 00:58:54,333
have the information. When we have the

1720
00:58:54,333 --> 00:58:56,250
ability to get the information, we just

1721
00:58:56,250 --> 00:58:57,541
don't make it a priority.

1722
00:58:58,083 --> 00:58:59,416
Right? Because these fish are just not

1723
00:58:59,416 --> 00:59:01,541
known in the public is not asking for it

1724
00:59:01,541 --> 00:59:03,500
each and every day. So what I would say

1725
00:59:03,500 --> 00:59:04,833
if you are listening to this, whether

1726
00:59:04,833 --> 00:59:06,416
you're in Canada, whether you're in the

1727
00:59:06,416 --> 00:59:09,083
US, UK, Australia, India, Brazil,

1728
00:59:09,416 --> 00:59:11,041
wherever you are, we are listened to in

1729
00:59:11,041 --> 00:59:14,250
as like as many countries as there are. I

1730
00:59:14,250 --> 00:59:17,041
think we are in over 190 countries on a

1731
00:59:17,041 --> 00:59:18,625
yearly basis. So if you're listening to

1732
00:59:18,625 --> 00:59:20,333
this in your new country, talk to your

1733
00:59:20,333 --> 00:59:21,541
government representative. If you're in a

1734
00:59:21,541 --> 00:59:23,083
democratic society and you're able to do

1735
00:59:23,083 --> 00:59:25,375
so safely, talk to your your

1736
00:59:25,375 --> 00:59:26,208
representative, your government

1737
00:59:26,208 --> 00:59:27,916
representative. Say, Hey, I want to

1738
00:59:27,916 --> 00:59:30,916
know more about these forage fish. This

1739
00:59:30,916 --> 00:59:33,083
is something that is a problem and we

1740
00:59:33,083 --> 00:59:34,333
need to deal with it. Oceana Canada

1741
00:59:34,333 --> 00:59:35,625
already highlighted the problem. They're

1742
00:59:35,625 --> 00:59:37,750
willing to work with you to do it, but we

1743
00:59:37,750 --> 00:59:39,458
need to make sure that the government was

1744
00:59:39,458 --> 00:59:41,333
a mandate to make sure that forage fish

1745
00:59:41,333 --> 00:59:43,250
are protected and we just need to get

1746
00:59:43,250 --> 00:59:44,708
information to find out where these

1747
00:59:44,708 --> 00:59:46,458
forage fish lie. That is really

1748
00:59:46,458 --> 00:59:47,833
important. So that's the big call to

1749
00:59:47,833 --> 00:59:50,041
action today is to really say, Hey, you

1750
00:59:50,041 --> 00:59:52,375
know what? We need to do something about

1751
00:59:52,375 --> 00:59:54,583
these forage fish. So that's the end of

1752
00:59:54,583 --> 00:59:56,291
the episode. I want to thank Jack and

1753
00:59:56,291 --> 00:59:57,916
Oceana Canada for highlighting this.

1754
00:59:57,916 --> 01:00:00,916
Story for me. You know, it's really great

1755
01:00:00,916 --> 01:00:03,458
when you have people like Vishali who's

1756
01:00:03,458 --> 01:00:05,833
at Oceana Canada, their comms director to

1757
01:00:05,833 --> 01:00:07,291
be able to say, Hey, you know what? Like

1758
01:00:07,291 --> 01:00:10,125
we can really use your help and getting

1759
01:00:10,125 --> 01:00:11,875
this information out there. They've been

1760
01:00:11,875 --> 01:00:14,916
a huge friend of the podcast for me in

1761
01:00:14,916 --> 01:00:17,250
the past. You know, they're not a

1762
01:00:17,250 --> 01:00:18,416
sponsor, but they're just a great

1763
01:00:18,416 --> 01:00:19,958
organization that I like to highlight.

1764
01:00:20,333 --> 01:00:21,916
And I want to make sure that we are

1765
01:00:21,916 --> 01:00:23,875
getting the words out there and making

1766
01:00:23,875 --> 01:00:25,125
sure that we gain the information out

1767
01:00:25,125 --> 01:00:27,250
there as soon as possible. So I want to

1768
01:00:27,250 --> 01:00:27,916
thank you guys so much for joining us.

1769
01:00:27,916 --> 01:00:29,875
so much for being a part

1770
01:00:29,875 --> 01:00:33,041
of this podcast as well.

1771
01:00:33,500 --> 01:00:35,083
We're gonna be back next week.

1772
01:00:35,083 --> 01:00:35,416
We're gonna be

1773
01:00:35,416 --> 01:00:37,166
talking about the high seas.

1774
01:00:37,541 --> 01:00:38,458
It's gonna be really fun.

1775
01:00:38,833 --> 01:00:40,708
We're gonna be talking to the director

1776
01:00:40,708 --> 01:00:42,166
of the High Seas Alliance,

1777
01:00:42,583 --> 01:00:43,625
and we're gonna do all

1778
01:00:43,625 --> 01:00:45,666
podcasts on high seas next week,

1779
01:00:45,666 --> 01:00:46,416
Monday to Friday.

1780
01:00:46,791 --> 01:00:48,541
So stay tuned, follow

1781
01:00:48,541 --> 01:00:49,500
if you haven't followed,

1782
01:00:49,708 --> 01:00:50,458
and I just wanna thank

1783
01:00:50,458 --> 01:00:51,500
you so much for joining me

1784
01:00:51,500 --> 01:00:52,875
on today's episode of the How

1785
01:00:52,875 --> 01:00:53,958
to Protect the Ocean podcast.

1786
01:00:54,416 --> 01:00:56,166
You can follow me on, if

1787
01:00:56,166 --> 01:00:56,708
you go to the show notes,

1788
01:00:56,875 --> 01:00:57,791
I have all my socials there.

1789
01:00:57,958 --> 01:00:59,250
DM me, get in touch with me.

1790
01:00:59,583 --> 01:01:00,333
Whatever you like to do.

1791
01:01:00,333 --> 01:01:01,583
I'm on Instagram, TikTok,

1792
01:01:02,500 --> 01:01:03,541
Facebook, everywhere,

1793
01:01:04,291 --> 01:01:05,500
YouTube, wherever you wanna find me.

1794
01:01:06,375 --> 01:01:07,083
And that's where we're

1795
01:01:07,083 --> 01:01:08,041
gonna, that's where you find me.

1796
01:01:08,041 --> 01:01:08,916
So go to show notes,

1797
01:01:08,916 --> 01:01:10,083
click that link, DM me.

1798
01:01:10,458 --> 01:01:10,958
And I want, thank you

1799
01:01:10,958 --> 01:01:11,625
so much for joining me

1800
01:01:11,625 --> 01:01:12,666
on today's episode of the How

1801
01:01:12,666 --> 01:01:13,666
to Protect the Ocean podcast.

1802
01:01:13,666 --> 01:01:14,625
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.

1803
01:01:14,916 --> 01:01:15,458
Have a great day.

1804
01:01:15,458 --> 01:01:16,000
We'll talk to you next

1805
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:17,208
time and happy conservation.