Who Really Wins When Marine Sanctuaries Are Opened?

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When politicians say they're helping
fishermen by opening protected

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areas to fishing, the first
question we should ask is simple.

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Which fishermen are we benefiting?

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This is the How to Protect the Ocean
podcast, your weekday ocean news update.

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If you wanna get stay updated on the
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button right now on your favorite podcast
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And you're not gonna wanna miss
tomorrow's story 'cause we're gonna be

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talking about pilot whales and noise.

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It's gonna be really interesting.

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Now, the Trump administration has
announced actions that would reopen

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previously protected areas, marine
sanctuaries, to commercial fishing.

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And, you know, one of the things when
we first see is like, this is awful.

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You know, we've heard that he wanted
to do this before, Trump and the

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administration wanted to do this before.

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And we know it's awful, and I'm
part of a group that does action and

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does science communication around,
like, making sure people know.

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And one of my good friends that I do a
podcast with, Polar Bears in Flip-Flops,

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Angelo Villagomez, had a great video,
and I'll paraphrase what he talked about

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in this video, but also link to that
video on Instagram that I saw it in.

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He's on TikTok as well
with the same video.

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But essentially, he's looking
at, like, they're opening the

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sanctuaries in the Mariana Trench.

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They're opening it in Papahānaumokuākea
and a lot in the American overseas

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territories in the Pacific,
which is mostly populated by

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indigenous Pacific Americans.

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And so what we see here is the fact
that, hey, they're gonna roll back these

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protections to allow fishing to happen.

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So you would think that they would be able
to fish and make some money off of it.

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Which look, opening up to fishing a
protected area that was closed to protect

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fishing, because when we have a marine
protected area, to close that, um,

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you wanna make-- to close that to a,
for a marine protected area and allow

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the fish to recover and then grow in
abundance and biomass, so number and size.

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And then spill over into the
outside of those boundaries so

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that people can fish forever.

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That's the idea.

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But when you start to open up the
sanctuary, right away we're like,

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"No, this is not a good idea." The
sanctuary was there for a reason.

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A lot of them were expanded upon for
reasons, and good reasons, scientific

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reasons, and conservation reasons.

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But then now all of a
sudden you're opening it.

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Not a good idea from the
long-term aspect of it.

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But then also, like, who benefits?

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That's what it really comes
down to, 'cause there's a

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little bit of an interest.

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Like Angelo starts to talk about
in his video that I'll link

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to that, hey, you know what?

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Not everybody that you
think benefits, benefits.

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Like the local people, local indigenous
people in the Pacific Islands aren't

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really benefiting because they're
opening up to commercial fishing and

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not necessarily artisanal fishing.

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And supporters say it's good
for American seafood production,

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but the critics say that it benefits
large commercial interests more

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than small fishing communities
or local fishing communities.

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And today I wanna look beyond the
politics because look, we know

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the politics in the US sucks.

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like right now from an
environmental perspective.

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I wanna go beyond the politics, and
I wanna ask the bigger question.

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Who should benefit from
public ocean resources?

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So let's look at what's
essentially happening.

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The administration moved to
allow this commercial fishing

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in previously protected waters.

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It includes areas that have restrictions
designed to protect ecosystems, like

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I mentioned, and the supporters
argue that regulations are unnecessary

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in these areas and harm economic
opportunities, which a lot of people

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are just like, "We just wanna fish more,
and this is how we're gonna do it."

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Now, the opponents of this action to
remove these protections argue that

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protection existed for a reason.

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And to be honest, they were working.

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There's data to say that there is
an increase in fisheries, and that's

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something that's really important.

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And I've explained how MPAs work,
so we don't have to go into that.

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We know that this is an important
part of ocean conservation.

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We know they work as
long as they're in force.

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But many people hear protected area
and assume that no one can enter.

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Most marine protected areas have
very different levels of protection.

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Some will allow fishing, depending.

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Some will allow recreational
fishing, local fishing.

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Some will have, like, restrict,
like, specific gear, and some

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prohibit extraction entirely.

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A proper MPA, marine protected
area, will prohibit any kind of

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extraction, whether it's for fisheries
resources, whether it's for mining.

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Sometimes they don't even allow
scientific discovery or studies to

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happen, which sometimes it's important.

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But I want you to think of a
protected area as a savings account.

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You leave money untouched today,
so there's money available

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tomorrow, and it'll grow.

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Slowly, but it'll grow.

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And a lot of the times, when you
leave that money in, you realize

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it grows a lot more than you think
and faster than you think, as long

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as you don't touch that money.

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Well, the same idea applies
for fisheries populations.

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And I think this is where fisheries
closures have worked in the past,

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especially small and large scale.

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We've seen them actually work.

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We've seen them grow.

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We've seen the fish numbers grow.

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We've seen the fish biomass grow.

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And then they spill over.

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It takes some time, but these
protected areas, these sanctuaries…

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Papahānaumokuākea has been a sanctuary
for quite a long time, over a decade now.

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And so we're seeing changes
happen to the system.

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We're allowing that system to recover.

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And sometimes, you know, when you
sacrifice the short-term economic

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goals, you get long-term sustainability.

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And that's what really is
the patience that's required.

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That's what it really comes down to.

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But the real debate isn't
whether fishing is good or bad.

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It's about who benefits when
protections are removed.

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Because let's be honest, like,
unfortunately, with this administration,

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there are certain people who benefit.

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The people who speak or have access to
the administration and want to exploit

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natural resources, they tend to win out.

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Commercial fishing is not just
one thing, it's everything.

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There are small scale fishers, and
there are indigenous fisheries.

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There are large industrial operations.

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Like, there's a lot of different
things like, scales and

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different types of fishing.

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And often the benefits
are distributed unevenly.

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'Cause I want you to think about,
like, indigenous fisheries or

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even small scale fisheries.

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These are fishers that go out,
and they take what they can have.

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They can sell them off, or they
can give to their communities.

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Or they can sell to their
communities or barter or trade.

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And they do it sustainably, so
they can fish again tomorrow and

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tomorrow and the next generation,
the next generation, next generation.

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Commercial fishing is
a little bit different.

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It's looking for money, and it has
a lot more capacity to hold fish.

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Oftentimes or sometimes they're
not on the right side of the law.

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But they're there to grab
as many fish as they can.

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And sustainability, they
look at the numbers.

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They don't look at the
communities that are affected.

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They don't look in indigenous communities.

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They don't look at local communities,
non-indigenous communities,

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and they don't really care
about what's happening locally.

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They care about how much money
hits their bottom line, how much

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profit can they make off these fish?

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And so when it's commercial fishing,
you see some major, like, trawlers.

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You'll see some major, like, massive
fish that can hold just as many fish

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as a small town or even a big city.

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And so that could be quite dangerous
when we're looking at sustainability.

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But I want to ask you this, like,
when you hear the word fisherman

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or fisher, who do you picture.

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' Cause that's, something
that I would love to know.

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Do you kinda see, like, small
boats leaving coastal harbor?

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Do you kinda picture, like,
family-run operations?

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Or do you, like, see these massive,
massive ships, like industrial

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fleets with corporate ownership?

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Or even sometimes ownership where
you just don't know who owns

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cause the paperwork is so crazy.

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Usually that's illegal fishing.

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I've seen all of them.

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And I think what we picture as
the fisher, and I don't like

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saying fisherman just because it's
gender bias, but, like, fisher.

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We picture somebody, sometimes,
like, for me, I picture, like,

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a small town fisher, right?

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A local fisher who

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knows the area very well.

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People that I've gone on boats with
to do sampling with because they're

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interested in what's happening
to the fish that have… And they

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know more and they tell us a lot
of what's been going on for years.

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That's the fisher that I
predict, like, that I picture.

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You know, family-run
operations, that kinda stuff.

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I don't picture the industrial fleet.

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I don't picture, like, corporate
ownership and corporate fleets,

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'cause I don't like that.

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I want the fisher to win.

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I want the local fisher to win.

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'Cause they tend not
to do illegal fishing.

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They tend not to take everything they can.

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They tend to want to fish forever, and
they want to take care of their ocean.

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And I think depending on how you see
it and depending where you come from is

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really how you look at fishing overall.

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And I think, like, opening up the
sanctuary I think is a bad thing.

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Overall, I think it's a bad thing.

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But I think opening up the sanctuary
for industrial fishing and not other

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small town fishing, small scale
fishing, I think is a huge mistake.

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When you go back to these fishers, when
you talk about how public messaging

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often focuses on local fishers.

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But the largest economic
benefits can go elsewhere.

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I heard this at a conference I was
at this week, and somebody said,

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"Hey, if you ever see a fisher
get interviewed, it's usually the

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fisher who may not look the best.

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May not look clean cut.

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May look a little dirty,
just coming in from fishing.

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May not have all their teeth.

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They may not look the greatest.

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They may look like, oh, this is what we
picture a fisher." And the media does

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that oftentimes, more times than not.

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But they also get a local fisher,
whether it's a conflict or whether

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it's something that's a benefit or
they're doing something really cool.

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They'll get a local fisher.

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They rarely interview the
fleets, the industrial fleets,

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and those corporate heads.

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You rarely see that.

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There's kind of behind a wall.

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And I think that's like It's sad in
a way because that's what we picture,

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and so maybe we don't see fishing
as bad if we're picturing the local

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fisher because you want them to win.

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It's like an underdog.

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You want the underdog to win.

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But the thing is, is like these
industrial fleets come in, they

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come around local areas, they
grab all their fish, they leave.

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And the ocean resources are
like, they're public resources.

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I feel like when you look at that,
you're like, who gets access?

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Who makes the money?

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Who bears the risk?

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Who bears the consequences
if the stocks decline?

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If a commercial fishing fleet comes
in and takes a lot of the fish and

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there's nothing left or very little
left for the local population,

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who really wins in that area?

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Obviously, the ocean's not winning,
but also the local community's

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not winning who's taken care of
that coastal area for a long time.

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This is where I feel like life is unfair.

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Obviously the news of opening up
the sanctuary is not good news.

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It may not affect most people
who are not really thinking of

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the ocean on a regular basis.

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They're just like, "Oh, that opens.

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They'll probably close it later on.

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They'll probably open it up."
Who knows what they're thinking.

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Those are the people I don't usually talk
to on this show because they're not really

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thinking, they don't usually seek out
something about how to protect the ocean.

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But this is something
that's really important.

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I want , the local fisher to be
able to fish sustainably 'cause

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they take care of the area.

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I want the indigenous fisher to win
because they take care of the ocean.

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They take care of their coastline.

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And I think that's really important.

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The one thing I've learned covering
fisheries issues is that these

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debates are rarely simple, and it's
unfortunately conservation versus fishing.

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And it could be both,
it really can be both.

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But I think it really depends.

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'Cause like communities depend on
the fishing, there's an importance

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on that healthy ecosystem.

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And then like balancing
economic needs with conservation

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goals is really important.

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And I think that's something that's
really good, 'cause like a fish that's

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harvested today cannot reproduce tomorrow.

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We have to know that.

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So making sure you catch specific types
of fish, specific genders of fish, non,

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like egg-carrying fish and so forth.

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And that's why fisheries management
is always balancing like present

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benefits against future opportunities.

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But unfortunately, when politics
are involved, it often says who's

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lobbying the government more?

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That's the result that happens.

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And I think that's a
really, really big problem.

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And it's a problem that a lot of
fisheries communities get because

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they can't communicate effectively
or properly or get access to the

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right people on a daily basis.

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And I think that's really important.

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And communication is so important in
these ocean projects, whether it's a

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fisheries community, whether it's an
indigenous community, whether it's a

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local community that's trying to stand
up and try to get baseline data, try to

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understand their area, try to put like a
scientific methodology to understanding

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the health of their ecosystem.

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That communication and the projects
that need to go in require some help,

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require collaborators, and that's why
they sponsor this show, Pisces Ocean,

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who I work for, piscesoceans.ca.

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We are here to help your ocean project.

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If you have an ocean project
and you want that extra help,

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you may not have the capacity.

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We have that extra resource.

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We can provide that extra
resource from project management

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to strategy to communications.

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We can do it all.

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We can help you, and we wanna help you
'cause ocean impact is really important.

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The impact that local communities have
on the ocean is extremely important.

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Sometimes they don't have the
capacity or the money to have

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that capacity to get there.

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But proposals and now grants
are really focusing in on local

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communities and local projects, and
we wanna help that local project.

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So go to piscesoceans.ca.

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I'll put the link in the show notes, and
you'll be able to have access to that.

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So let's look at what's happening next.

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For this, the rollback of the marine
sanctuary protections, we're probably

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seeing conservation groups that are likely
to challenge this decision, not only in

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the press, not only communication-wise,
but probably in the courts.

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I know of some organizations that are
already in court with the administration.

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And let's be honest, a lot of these
things that the Trump administration

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has announced have been won from the
environmental perspective in the court.

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So that could happen as well, and
it is likely gonna go to court.

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The fishing industry groups will
probably support greater access,

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because that's what they want.

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And scientists will continue monitoring
fish populations and ecosystem impact.

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Angelo has mentioned this on the Two
Polar Bears in Flip-flops Podcast because

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he said, "Look, this is an opportunity
for us to gather data, to see how good

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the situation is or how healthy these
marine sanctuaries are after being closed

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down for so long, and then the impacts
of reopening it and fishing to be able

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to see what the impacts are, whether
it be negative, positive, like mild.

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We'll see what happens." So I think this
is something that's really important.

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And then of course, like the
midterms coming up, it's gonna

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be really important to vote.

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If you're an American and you want these
marine sanctuaries to stay intact, you're

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gonna wanna vote opposite of what this
administration is, so that you can stop

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this administration from doing all these
rollbacks for environmental regulations.

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Because future administrations can
actually alter protections again.

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So if you have the Congress and you
have the Senate that are looking out

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for not only economic development but
also environmental protections, which

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they're not mutually exclusive, they
can be together, that's gonna be a

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really important thing in the future.

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So don't knock these, , this is a very
important election from an environmental

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perspective coming up in the US.

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Now, we don't know what's gonna happen.

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Whether this is gonna go through,
whether it's not gonna go through.

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But speaking up and voting is
going to be something that's

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really gonna be important.

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So that's gonna be something
that we're gonna have to look

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out for, in the long run.

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And to be honest, that's like
ultimately what this story is about.

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It's not about politics.

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It's not even about fishing in a way.

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It's about how we manage something
that belongs to all of us.

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This is an ocean that belongs
to really the indigenous people

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and the Pacific Islanders.

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It's really about how we manage this, and
how we look at who is being impacted the

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most, especially in these local areas.

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I think it's really interesting.

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The debate over protected
area waters isn't really about

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whether people should fish.

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It's about whether short-term
benefits today are worth

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the potential cost tomorrow.

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That's really what we're
talking about here.

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Cause as I said last Friday,
when you close down a marine

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protected area, it normally works.

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If you do it properly, enforce
it properly, it's not a

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paper park, it usually works.

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So it's a matter of like, what
do we wanna do in the future?

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What do we want our oceans
to look like in the future?

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How do we want our people
to benefit in the future?

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Because once a fish population
declines, rebuilding it can take years,

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decades, or even sometimes longer.

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Like the cod population in the North
Atlantic has not recovered fully or

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even close to what it was in the past.

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And now we're opening up the
cod populations for industrial

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fishing way too soon.

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And it's a political decision that
is probably influenced by lobbying.

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00:15:21,268 --> 00:15:23,098
So again, who wins in that matter?

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It's not the local fisheries.

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00:15:24,688 --> 00:15:26,198
It's not the local fishing communities.

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It's the industrial fleet.

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And that's why decisions about
public ocean resources really matter.

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I think it really does So anyway, we're
gonna be talking about this in the future.

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We'll be following this story.

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I think it's really important.

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But if you want to follow this story
here, you can follow How to Protect the

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00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:44,980
Ocean for your next weekday ocean update.

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That's really what it comes down to.

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00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,690
If you want more information on news,
ocean news, what's happening in the

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00:15:49,690 --> 00:15:53,027
ocean, how you can help, you can just
follow on your favorite podcast app.

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00:15:53,027 --> 00:15:55,177
Hit that follow button, subscribe,
whatever you'd like to do.

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00:15:55,357 --> 00:15:56,637
You can also go to Patreon.

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00:15:56,700 --> 00:15:58,270
We have a Patreon if you want.

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00:15:58,370 --> 00:16:01,250
I know I do five episodes a week,
and normally I do an interview.

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00:16:01,450 --> 00:16:03,570
If you want access to just the
interviews and you want it once a

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00:16:03,570 --> 00:16:05,490
week, I will have a feed open for that.

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00:16:05,700 --> 00:16:08,310
And otherwise, you can just get it
through your favorite podcast app.

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00:16:08,310 --> 00:16:09,980
But they do have feeds in Patreon.

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00:16:09,980 --> 00:16:10,830
I'll make that free.

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00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:14,110
If you wanna support the podcast
and you like what we do here and

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00:16:14,110 --> 00:16:17,420
you wanna support it monthly, we
do have a community on Patreon.

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00:16:17,620 --> 00:16:21,850
If you go to speakupforblue.com/patreon,
you can get access.

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00:16:21,850 --> 00:16:22,580
I'll put it in the show notes.

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00:16:22,580 --> 00:16:23,680
You can get access to that.

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00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:24,720
We have a community together.

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00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,440
I'd love to get together once a
month, once we have enough members.

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00:16:27,660 --> 00:16:29,400
And then, yeah, we're gonna go forward.

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We're gonna have a community.

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00:16:30,230 --> 00:16:31,220
We're gonna be able to talk.

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00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,630
It's gonna be a lot of fun because when
we build communities where it's not just

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00:16:35,630 --> 00:16:39,054
about ocean protection, it's about having
people together that have very similar

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00:16:39,054 --> 00:16:42,724
values around the ocean, and we can have
discussions, and we can have talks about

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00:16:42,724 --> 00:16:46,204
what we can do, that's where we really
start to make changes, and that's where

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we really start to protect the ocean.

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00:16:47,994 --> 00:16:49,354
So that's it for today's episode.

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00:16:49,384 --> 00:16:52,574
Go to speakupforblue.com/patreon
to join the community.

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00:16:52,884 --> 00:16:55,390
And I wanna thank you so much for
joining me on today's episode of the

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00:16:55,390 --> 00:16:56,580
How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:57,530
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.

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Have a great day.

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We'll talk to you next time,
and happy conservation.