The Power Shift Changing Ocean Projects in Canada

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For decades, indigenous communities
were often asked one question

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when a major project came through
their territory: Do you approve?

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And today, many indigenous nations
are asking a different question:

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Why don't we own part of it?

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Earlier this week, or actually last
week, I had the opportunity to moderate

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a panel on indigenous leadership
in ocean technology at a conference

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called H2O in Halifax, Canada.

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Wonderful conference.

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We had a great time, and
this panel was wonderful.

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We talked to Ken Paul
from Pokiok Associates.

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We talked to Barry
Stevens, who's an engineer.

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He's got an engineering background.

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We talked to Richard McLennan.

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He's not indigenous, but he works
with a lot of indigenous communities,

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and he owns a energy company.

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And interesting is, while the
discussion was focused on ocean

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technology, one idea kept coming
up over and over again, ownership.

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Not consultation, which a lot of the
times, we'll see on major projects here

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in Canada, was to say, "Oh, there's a
consultation process." Not consultation,

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not participation, ownership.

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Today, I wanna talk to you about why
that shift matters and how it's already

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happening across Canada and what it
could mean for the future of ocean

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conservation and ocean technology.

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And, to be honest, just conservation
in general across Canada.

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For a long time, major
development projects in Canada

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followed a familiar pattern.

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A company would develop a project.

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That project would be announced.

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Governments would get involved.

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Then indigenous communities would often be
consultants somewhere along the process.

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Now, when I say consulted, sometimes
they were just told that it was happening.

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Sometimes even if they were
consulted, the project went on

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anyway, even if they didn't approve.

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A lot of injustice has been happening in
Canada against indigenous communities.

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I am not indigenous.

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I am still in the learning process.

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I'll just give you a little background
of terms of when I was young, what

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I learned about indigenous people.

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All we learned when we were in elementary
school, when we learned about it, we

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learned about the wars that they had.

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We learned about the brutality.

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We learned about the
quote-unquote savagery.

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We never really learned about the
sophistication of the culture.

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We never learned about the religious
nature of the culture or the fact

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that they were one with environments,
one with the land, one with the

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water, and how sustainable they were.

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We never really learned that.

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Well, that has changed a little bit now.

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To be honest, when I was younger, I
didn't even know about residential

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schools, and that was huge issue
even when I grew up in the '80s.

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So there's a lot of stuff that happened,
including even today, where indigenous

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communities are quote-unquote consulted,
but they don't necessarily have a say.

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They're told about a process, but
they don't always have a say.

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There's a lot of nuances in the
types of treaties or ceded land.

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Some of the things get so complicated, I
don't even understand how it all works.

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I'm still learning how it all works.

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Sometimes the consultations
were meaningful, which is great.

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Other times it looked like it
was gonna be a protest and a lot

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of the times it was a standoff.

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But the structure was largely the same.

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The project existed first, the
conversation with indigenous

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communities came later.

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And what I heard during this
panel was something different.

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Increasingly, indigenous nations
are looking beyond consultation.

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They're looking at ownership.

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They're asking, "If a development
is happening on our territories,

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why shouldn't we be partners?" Think
about have that flips the narrative

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of like, hey, this pipeline's coming
through or this oil and gas, or we're

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gonna drill in this area, but you're
not gonna get any of that money, to

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switching it to be like, " Why shouldn't
we have equity in these projects?

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If they're going through our land, our
land is going to pay for the consequences.

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We should have the ability to pay for
cleaning up that land or paying for that

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land to be sustainable or paying for
the messes that these companies make."

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' Cause let's be honest, a lot of these
companies will go through indigenous land

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and whatever that category may be, and
they would ruin it, and they wouldn't have

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to pay for it, depending on the agreement,
they may not have to pay for it.

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Now, the question's like,
why shouldn't we have equity?

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Why shouldn't we have
governance authority?

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Why shouldn't we help shape
the future of these projects?

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I think that's a really important switch.

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When I heard that, and Ken Paul
said that on the panel, I'm

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like, that's really interesting.

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Case in point, in, uh, Nova Scotia,
there's a seafood company called

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Clearwater, a pretty big seafood company.

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And at this point in time, as I record
this, Clearwater's owned 50% by

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Indigenous people because it's on their
land, the processes happen on their land,

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it happens in their territorial waters.

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These are really interesting times
where First Nations are saying, "Hey,

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we should be a part of this, and we have
the ability to be a part of this." And

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I think that's a really important switch
in how we are discussing what happens.

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And it was really interesting 'cause,
like, when Ken Paul said that on the panel

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the other day, I was like, wow, that is
an interesting way of thinking of things.

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And I think what's nice about hearing
that is, like, a lot of the times,

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people will assume that First Nations
don't know what they're talking about.

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They go in assuming that outside
influences are better, they can educate.

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That's not true.

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More and more Indigenous people are
educated in the different technologies.

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They're educated in how the
land works, especially when it

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comes to natural resources like
fisheries or forestry and so forth.

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And so they know a lot more than a
lot of people give them credit for.

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And so when people come in and try
and build these relationships or

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tell the Indigenous communities
what they need to do with their

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land, it doesn't work anymore.

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That's not gonna happen.

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Indigenous people want
sustainability on their land.

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If you're gonna work on their
land, one, they want financial

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sustainability, but they also
want environmental sustainability.

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They wanna be able to dictate
what they can and cannot do on the

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property, on their land, so that
they can live there for generations

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and generations in the future.

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That's their land.

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They own that land.

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They were there first, and
they still have that land.

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And I think that was really a, key thing,
and I think that's where the audience

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of the, like, when we were watching this
panel, really kind of really perked up,

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being like, "Oh, this is new." 'Cause a
lot of companies that were there were

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energy companies, telecommunication
companies, and I think a lot of them

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kind of perked up and was like, "Wow,
okay, so this is how things are changing.

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The landscape is changing.

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The, what Indigenous communities want
is changing." And I think it's for

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the better for Canada in general.

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And I think that's what's really
important because as much as they've

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been through, the Indigenous communities
have been through with residential

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schools and the oppression and being
left out of conversations and being

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talked to after and talked down to and
treated like crap, there's a lot of

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resilience within these communities,
and there's a resilience to be one and

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respect land, water, and ocean, and air.

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It really is, and it's incredible
to be able to hear these panelists

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speak and how important it is to them.

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A lot of times when things are proposed
to them, they make decisions based

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off of, is it good for the community?

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Is it good for the environment?

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And does the community and
the environment benefit?

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And as I sat there listening to the
discussion, I realized that this wasn't

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really a conversation about technology,
but it was a conservation about power

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and how power is being taken back by the
indigenous community on their land, and

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they just want what's right for them.

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And this isn't just a theory.

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It's already happening.

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We're already seeing this across Canada.

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One of the best examples
comes from the ocean itself.

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In 2021, a coalition of Mi'kmaq
First Nations acquired 50%

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ownership of Clearwater Seafoods,
just like I had mentioned.

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Think about that for a second.

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This wasn't a benefit agreement.

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This wasn't a consultation process.

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This wasn't a company seeking approval.

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This was ownership.

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One of the largest seafood
companies in North America became

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half-owned by indigenous nations.

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That changes the conversation
because ownership means influence,

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and ownership means long-term
revenue for these communities.

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Ownership means a seat at
the decision-making table.

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And Clearwater isn't the only example.

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Across Canada, Indigenous nations are
increasingly becoming equity partners

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in major projects, energy projects,
infrastructure projects, resource

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projects, transportation projects.

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The model is evolving.

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And I think this is where Canada benefits.

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Because now, because of the culture
and the respect that Indigenous people

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have for the land and the sea, and the
fresh water, of course, we're gonna

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start seeing projects managed properly.

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We're not gonna just see greed being
taken over, and that those projects

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not managed for sustainable environment.

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And I think that's where
the benefit really comes.

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There's a lot of major projects
happening in Canada that are

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proposed for Canada, pipelines,
oil and gas development, mining.

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All these things are part of this
new world order that we're seeing

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because the US is adding unfair
tariffs and things on Canada.

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Canada has to change because the
US is our biggest trading partner.

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Prime Minister Mark Carney is
changing the landscape and developing

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all these projects, so we are an
oil and gas nation, unfortunately.

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And so our oil and gas is
a big part of our economy.

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So now if we can develop this economy
to go to the west and go to the east

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through pipelines, we can make a lot
more money, I guess, is what's happening.

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But unfortunately, in the
past, the way things were done

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things were fast-forwarded.

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When it goes through Indigenous
land, Indigenous people have the say.

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And a memorandum of understanding that
was signed between the province of Alberta

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and the federal government, and Alberta
is where most of our tar sands live.

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That's where they're extracted.

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The memorandum of understanding says
that the Indigenous communities where

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these pipelines are gonna go through
have to have final say whether they can

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go through or not, and that's gonna come
with this equity, come with this demand

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for sustainable living and making sure
that these projects are environmentally

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safe or as safe as possible.

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And we're gonna see
what happens with that.

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We're gonna see if that is
true, and we're gonna see if if

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these decisions are made for the
environment as well with that respect.

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Who knows what's gonna happen?

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But I feel a lot better about it
now that Indigenous people are going

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to be demanding equity, which means
they get influence, they get seats

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at the table, and they get a say.

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I think that's really important
'cause these communities have been

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talking about how important the
environment is to them, their culture,

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their history, and their future.

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Like with fisheries, with
Clearwater, It was a landmark deal.

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Ocean management's gonna get
better because, again, the

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sustainability aspect of it.

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And of course, it's gonna connect to,
economic development, stewardship,

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and then also, like, ownership.

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What that's gonna mean for the
future generations of fisheries?

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So if they own 50%, they
can make decisions on where

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they get their fish from.

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So fishers will have to obey their rules
in how they get those fish coming in.

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That could be a good thing
for the environment, for the

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ocean, which I'm looking forward
to seeing what's happening.

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But I

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guess what I'm gonna ask you is, like,
what changes when a community goes

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from being consulted to being an owner?

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I think that's a really powerful thing.

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I often see on podcasts You know, a lot
of different podcasts where people are

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gaining ownership, and especially on
podcasts from Black creators I've noticed

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in the US, where they go from not just
selling their rights and their IP of

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their podcast to these networks and stuff.

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They keep the IP, and they kinda lease
out their IP for a certain time, but they

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keep the ownership, and they talk about
how ownership is really important to them.

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Because ownership, they
have the decisions.

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They're not controlled by a company,
by a network of a podcast network.

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Or, like, if they're in the music
industry, they want ownership

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because the music industry,
we know how bad they can be.

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Or, if they own businesses.

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Like, you know, you see athletes, A lot
of the podcasts I watch are athletic.

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That's why I'm mentioning this.

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I've seen podcasts about podcasts,
and these are Black creators who

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are coming out and owning podcast
studios and masterminds, and the

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ownership is important to them.

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Because when they have ownership, now
all of a sudden, the economics are in

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their favor, the decision is, making is
in their favor, and that's important.

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And more and more people are learning
that ownership is really important

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for them and their future and
their sustainability in that future.

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Because you have different
incentives when you're an owner.

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You have different governance structures.

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You have different accountability
when you're doing that.

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And I think that's something
for me as this podcast, How To

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Protect The Ocean, I find that
because I own the rights to the IP.

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I've never sold it to anybody, I've
never had anybody take control of it.

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I get to control what I talk about.

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So what I feel that it's important for
you to know for whether it's science,

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whether it's conservation, whether
it's, like, job hunting, whether it's

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how people are being treated within
the science and conservation, ocean

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science and conservation world or even
the broader science and conservation

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field, that's important to me to have
that control, to remain independent.

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To retain that ownership of
what I could put on this show.

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'Cause I can change it up.

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I can go one episode a week.

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I can go one episode a month.

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I can go to five episodes a
week or seven episodes a week.

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One a day if I choose to, if I have the
time and I have the energy to do so.

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And I think that's important to me.

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That's important to me because I think
it's important for the audience to

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have that ability to make sure that
I'm not being influenced by anything.

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I'm having people on that I think are
amazing, and I think that's great.

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I wanna continue to have that, where
I'm talking about subject matters

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that I think is really important.

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And I think that's really big,
especially when it comes to

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rights holders and stakeholders.

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Even just that, the differences in those
names, I've talked about it before.

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Ken Paul, he was on another panel at
World Ocean Summit, and he talked a

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lot about how there's stakeholders,
and there's rights holders.

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Rights holders own the land.

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They have the right to that land.

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They don't just have a stake in it,
trying to get something out of it.

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So a lot of the times, we include
indigenous people as stakeholders,

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but they're really rights holders.

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They should have the final say on that
land if it's happening on their land.

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That's what's really important when it
comes to these types of conversations.

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And so now hearing that there's gonna
be equity ownership in a lot of these

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major projects, it makes me feel better
about the future of Canada's environment.

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I think that's something that we can
see happening in many years to come.

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And I think this is where like,
ocean technology enters the picture.

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The panel I moderated
wasn't about fisheries.

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It wasn't just about seafood
companies or oil and gas.

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It was about ocean technology,
and that's where things really get

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interesting because we're entering
a period where ocean technology is

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becoming increasingly important.

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AI, autonomous vehicles, ocean sensors,
mapping technologies, data platforms,

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environmental monitoring systems.

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These tools will shape how we
understand and manage the ocean.

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But the question is: Who owns them?

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Who controls the data?

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Who decides how they're going to
be used, and who benefits from the

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economic opportunities they create?

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Historically, Indigenous communities
have often participated in projects

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after the major decisions were already
made, and that is really crappy,

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and it pisses a lot of people off.

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And you wonder why Indigenous
people are so angry when these

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decisions are made without them.

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But if ownership is becoming
the new model in fisheries and

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infrastructure, could it become the
new model in ocean technology as well?

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That's the question I think we'll be
hearing much more from over the next

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decade because I think it's gonna be
interesting to see, especially with

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ocean sovereignty and who controls
the ocean and who has access to the

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ocean, and how Indigenous people and
government are gonna work together

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to ensure that they have that access.

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That's gonna be a really
interesting process in seeing

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what happens in the future.

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We look at data sovereignty, we look at
Indigenous-led innovation, Indigenous

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led monitoring programs, community-based
technology development, local priorities

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that will drive technology adoption.

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Like, these are all things
that I think is gonna be huge.

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And one of the biggest things that
was said at the panel as I wrap things

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up here is, Ken Paul mentioned, we've
been living together, Indigenous and

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non-Indigenous for over 500 years,
yet we barely know each other.

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There's been social structures and
pressures that have really kept

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us from engaging with each other.

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And I think when you really come
down to the brass tacks, if you will.

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It's just getting to know each other.

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We have to be in a part of just getting
to know each other, getting to a point

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where we can build relationships from an
individual basis, we can start trusting

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each other and start creating friendships
in these professional relationships.

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I think that's something
that is really important.

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Strip away the stereotypes we have
of each other and be able to work

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together, because I think we're gonna
benefit from each other if we do.

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And I think like that combination is
gonna be great in the future, especially

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when it comes to the environment.

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That's really what left me after that.

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I was like, "Oh, this is really,
really cool. This is something

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that we can look into the future."
And like what happens next?

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I think we're watching like a broader
shift happen in Canada, a shift from

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consultation toward partnership to a
shift from participation toward ownership,

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and I think that's gonna be a powerful
shift, a shift from being included in

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conversations to helping lead them.

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And will every project follow that?

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Probably not.

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Will every partnership succeed?

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Probably not.

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But the trend is becoming
increasingly clear.

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More indigenous nations are
seeking equity positions.

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More governments are
supporting those approaches.

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And more industries are recognizing
that ownership creates stronger

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relationship than consultation alone.

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And if that trend continues, it could
fundamentally change how ocean projects

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are developed in this country and how,
like, the economics are gonna change

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within these indigenous communities.

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I think that's what
we're really seeing here.

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Like, you know, the potential of
offshore wind, ocean monitoring

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00:16:49,126 --> 00:16:52,370
networks, blue economy projects,
marine transportation infrastructure,

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emerging technology companies.

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We're really gonna start to see
a shift in how things are going

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to change in the future, whether
it's near future or far from it.

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It's gonna change.

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I think that's really interesting.

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The question I ask to you, like, what
would ocean conservation look like if

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communities most connected to the ocean
were also among the largest owners

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of the projects operating there?

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Let's think about that for a
sec. I think we're at a very

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good position in the future.

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The most important thing I learned from
moderating this panel wasn't just about

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00:17:19,980 --> 00:17:21,600
technology, it was about ownership.

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Because when communities move from being
consulted to becoming partners and owners,

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the conversation changes completely, and
that shift may end up shaping the future

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00:17:31,220 --> 00:17:35,023
of ocean conservation in Canada, and
even land conservation in Canada, as

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much as any new technology we could ever
see, whether it be AI or anything else.

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That's it for today's episode.

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If you enjoyed today's and you wanna
hear tomorrow's, follow How to Protect

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00:17:45,906 --> 00:17:49,523
the Ocean for your next Ocean weekday
update, because I think this is something

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00:17:49,523 --> 00:17:53,523
that we're trying to change the culture,
change around just discussing the ocean,

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00:17:53,533 --> 00:17:57,623
thinking about the ocean from one of
using it as a natural resource to using

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00:17:57,623 --> 00:17:59,860
it and respecting it as we use it.

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00:18:00,100 --> 00:18:03,130
I think that's really important, and we
can definitely learn from our indigenous

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friends and communities about how to
manage the planet, manage the land,

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manage the freshwater, and manage the sea.

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I think it's something
that's really important.

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But that's it for today's episode.

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If you wanna get a hold
of me, you can do so.

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00:18:13,683 --> 00:18:15,383
Just go to the show notes,
all my socials are there.

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00:18:15,383 --> 00:18:17,463
DM me on Instagram, TikTok,
whatever you'd like.

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I'd be more than happy to continue
this conversation that we started here.

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00:18:21,226 --> 00:18:23,640
But that's it for today's episode of
the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.

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Have a great day.

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We'll talk to you next time,
and happy conservation.